Sizing up the DT's

[Mecca]

January 22, 2008

If you have ever watched the National Geographic Channel, you would know that the grizzly bear is a fearsome creature. When the grizzly bear stands on its hind legs, you know you are in trouble but don’t try to run because the grizzly bear is violently quick, running at an alarming 35 miles per hour.

In the 2008 draft, there are two defensive tackles that resemble grizzly bears. Louisiana State’s Glenn Dorsey and Southern Cal’s Sedrick Ellis are two of the most feared DTs to come out in the same year since 1994 when Dan Wilkinson and Bryant Young both went within the first seven selections of the NFL Draft.

One on One

When we break down the tape, both Dorsey and Ellis are fierce linemen with more physical tools than any highly regarded defensive tackle since Tommie Harris in 2004. We won’t get a confirmed height and weight for Glenn Dorsey until the NFL Combine, but he is reportedly 6’2”, 303 lbs. At the Senior Bowl, Sedrick Ellis sized in at 6’0”, 308 lbs.

LSU’s Glenn Dorsey recorded 7 sacks, 12.5 tackles for a loss, and 69 total tackles as a senior in 2007. He also forced 1 fumble, hurried the quarterback 3 times, and broke up 3 passes. Dorsey may have the ideal frame for a defensive tackle but his quickness is similar to a defensive end’s. He does well as a pass rusher and usually was double teamed in 2007. Despite playing hurt most of 2007, Dorsey managed to change the momentum of games, especially against South Carolina. Dorsey’s arm length doesn’t wow scouts but the ability to dominate in one-on-one situations and swallow any gap around him makes up for what he lacks physically.

The Trojans have had a hidden gem in Sedrick Ellis for some time but he didn’t begin to garnish national attention until his senior year. In 2007, Ellis filled up his stat sheet with 8.5 sacks, 12.5 tackles for a loss and 58 total tackles. He also had 1 quarterback hurry and 7 passes broken up. Ellis isn’t as big height-wise as scouts like, but his extraterrestrial strength and speed makes him a highly regarded prospect. He is very instinctive and leads with a very quick first step. Watching Ellis is like watching a fundamental video on how to shed blocks. He possesses sound techniques and has top-notch intangibles. Like Dorsey, Ellis has had injury problems, breaking his ankle in 2003 and injuring his left knee in 2006. When it comes to disrupting the fluidity on offense for opponents, there is not one prospect in this draft that can do that like Sedrick Ellis.

Natural Habitat

Unlike Ellis, Glenn Dorsey would be better suited for just the 4-3 defensive scheme. As you can see, Ellis could play in both the 3-4 and 4-3. Dorsey is solid in shedding blockers but isn’t the nose tackle prospect Haloti Ngata was a couple of years’ back. Meanwhile, Sedrick Ellis is a hog at both positions, relinquishing the power that the center and guards may have on him and dominating the trenches.

While you may be confused and start to wonder, how is Dorsey more highly regarded than Ellis? He simply isn’t. As you read this, there are scouts and pro personnel breaking down film trying to decipher who is better suited for what and who has shown more weakness than the other. At the end of the day, it may be a push. Dorsey has a quicker first step and may use his hands better than Ellis but Ellis is quicker to dominate a double-team than Dorsey. Both DTs have played through injuries during their time in school and both have anchored a BCS defense.

Conclusion

If there were any fair comparison’s to current NFL DTs, I would put Glenn Dorsey in the Kevin Williams category and place Sedrick Ellis in the Albert Haynesworth category. In all honesty though, there are no fair comparisons. Both have the upside as the aforementioned Pro Bowler’s. Both have the talent and value to award them with bank-breaking rookie contracts. The only difference between the two is that depending on defensive scheme, one will get drafted ahead of the other.

Don’t look for the Miami Dolphins to draft Glenn Dorsey if they put in place a 3-4 scheme. Instead, look for them to address another need or grab a defensive end. On the other hand, Dorsey would fit in well with the St. Louis Rams (to replace La’Roi Glover). Sedrick Ellis meanwhile would be a great fit for the Miami Dolphins but his stock is not quite that up that high yet. Ellis plays with a Warren Sapp-like mean streak and could fit in well with Oakland. Regardless of this speculation, both Dorsey and Ellis will be top 8 eight selections come April.

So who is the better prospect? Flip a coin -- you can’t be wrong with heads or tails. This is the perfect win-win scenario for a franchise picking early in the draft that needs to address the middle of their defensive line.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by suds79

I'm not saying I'm against Dorsey or Ellis.

My 1st preference is either Ryan or Long. I have a feeling one of them will be there.

But here's an interesting question.

Why are some people saying we have to give Croyle more time to develop and not saying the same thing about Tank Tyler or Turk McBride (yes I know he's a DE but he rotates to DT sometimes)?

It's the same thing isn't it? Those guys are rookies. And we all know DT takes time to develop just like QB.

Would it be because the upgrade from say Tank to Dorsey or Ellis is too great to pass up?

The same could be said about Ryan or any of those QBs projected to go in the top 10 in comparison to Croyle.

Because even if they do develop, you still need more bodies.

I have hope for Tyler, and if he does develop, then with Boone, Tyler and Ellis, we'd have a monster rotation.

If McBride develops as well, we'd be set for years at the position.

[Coogs]

Really good thread!

I could actually see this scenario playing out. It seems as if we are following the blueprint of the Bears under the Lovie Smith regime. Just about the time the Bears defense was about as good as they come, and the offense was about as bad as it comes, the 2006 draft rolls around. The Bears should draft all offense... all of the time. Right?

Wrong...

2nd Danieal Manning DB Abilene Christian
2nd Devin Hester WR Miami (FL) (moved to DB?)
3rd Dusty Dvoracek DT Oklahoma
4th Jamar Williams LB Arizona State
5th Mark Anderson DE Alabama

[RustShack]

Originally Posted by suds79

I'm not saying I'm against Dorsey or Ellis.

My 1st preference is either Ryan or Long. I have a feeling one of them will be there.

But here's an interesting question.

Why are some people saying we have to give Croyle more time to develop and not saying the same thing about Tank Tyler or Turk McBride (yes I know he's a DE but he rotates to DT sometimes)?

It's the same thing isn't it? Those guys are rookies. And we all know DT takes time to develop just like QB.

Would it be because the upgrade from say Tank to Dorsey or Ellis is too great to pass up?

The same could be said about Ryan or any of those QBs projected to go in the top 10 in comparison to Croyle.

There is a much greater chance of Ellis and Doresy being elite DT's than there is of Ryan being an Elite QB. You start one QB vs starting 2 DT's. Turk and Tank had a pretty good defense around them, Croyle didn't have a good offense around him. Bottom line You don't see players like Ellis or Doresy every year, you see QB's like Ryan every year.

[xbarretx]

Originally Posted by RustShack

There is a much greater chance of Ellis and Doresy being elite DT's than there is of Ryan being an Elite QB. You start one QB vs starting 2 DT's. Turk and Tank had a pretty good defense around them, Croyle didn't have a good offense around him. Bottom line You don't see players like Ellis or Doresy every year, you see QB's like Ryan every year.

yep so if we go 4th we COULD COULD COULD (not likley for some of these guys but i stress could) get

Dorsey
Long,
Ellis,
Mcfadden
Long
Ryan/woodson/brohm

the moral to my story is if we go 4th we will get dorsey, C long, J long, or Ellis.

if we go 5th, we hope someone takes a QB and or McFadden and then we still get Dorsey, long, long ellis.

if we dont reach this draft could be very good due to depth and needed positions

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by xbarretx

and passsing up a clear BPA would be crazy too (unless the combines tell otherwise)

How is the combine going to help determine whether Long is a better tackle than Ellis is a DT?

[Coogs]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

How is the combine going to help determine whether Long is a better tackle than Ellis is a DT?

Wonderlic test score?

[xbarretx]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

How is the combine going to help determine whether Long is a better tackle than Ellis is a DT?

its not, i was referring to the other OT's behind long incase a nice trade down scenerio presents itself or in regards to rd 2 OT prospects and not having to reach for them

prettymuch if Longs LONG-gone and we take Ellis and get our linemen in the 2nd.

[suds79]

Originally Posted by RustShack

There is a much greater chance of Ellis and Doresy being elite DT's than there is of Ryan being an Elite QB. You start one QB vs starting 2 DT's. Turk and Tank had a pretty good defense around them, Croyle didn't have a good offense around him. Bottom line You don't see players like Ellis or Doresy every year, you see QB's like Ryan every year.

Well I want you doing our drafting since you're so sure.

Just don't forget that DT isn't nearly as important as the QB position. That accounts for something.

Plus there have been several DT busts.

Ryan Sims, Wyndell Bryant (remember him?), the Jets Robertson.

Granted some positions are safer than others. But I would argue that DT is not one of them.

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by Chief Faithful

I seriously doubt Ellis will be available for the Chiefs.

I believe Ellis will be their because he's truly underrated, and guys like Vernon Gholston will jump ahead of him because of their combine and Pro Day measurables

[keg in kc]

I'd say the Chiefs can't afford to keep dipping into the DT well. They've drafted 8 of them since 2001, with 5 of those picks coming on day 1. They haven't hit on any of them (Tank and Turk excluded; they're unknown quantities at this point) and every miss doesn't just hurt the team at DT, it prevents them from spending picks on other positions of need. In the end, they took Tank and Turk last year, and, for good or ill, those are the guys they're going to have to count on to develop into players. They just can't afford to keep spending key draft picks on the same position over and over.

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

I'd say the Chiefs can't afford to keep dipping into the DT well. They've drafted 8 of them since 2001, with 5 of those picks coming on day 1. They haven't hit on any of them (Tank and Turk excluded; they're unknown quantities at this point) and every miss doesn't just hurt the team at DT, it prevents them from spending picks on other positions of need. In the end, they took Tank and Turk last year, and, for good or ill, those are the guys they're going to have to count on to develop into players. They just can't afford to keep spending key draft picks on the same position over and over.

If the BPA is a DT you take him PERIOD

[RustShack]

The Lions are going to let Shaun Rogers go, I say we bring him in!

[RustShack]

Originally Posted by suds79

Well I want you doing our drafting since you're so sure.

Just don't forget that DT isn't nearly as important as the QB position. That accounts for something.

Plus there have been several DT busts.

Ryan Sims, Wyndell Bryant (remember him?), the Jets Robertson.

Granted some positions are safer than others. But I would argue that DT is not one of them.

If we didn't have a top 5 pick and the elite players were off the board, I would concider one of those QB's.

[mylittlepony]

Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare

I believe Ellis will be their because he's truly underrated, and guys like Vernon Gholston will jump ahead of him because of their combine and Pro Day measurables

Really cause I belive that Ellis is overrated on these boards and Long is underrated. I wonder why

Ellis is good but to talk about him over Dorsey, only on chiefsplanet.

[xbarretx]

Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare

If the BPA is a DT you take him PERIOD

Dude, fellow planeteers are well aware of this. However, if they openly admit they know it then they cant complain and second guess everything this comming season. its just a way to pace themselfs so they dotn run out of stuff to about i mean which would you rather gripe about?

Chiefs pick BPA at #5 but still have a lackluster season in 08?

or

Chiefs REACH for Chirs Williams at #5 just b/c we need an OT?

my guess is the ladder