The MIA Heat Show Thread

[DaKCMan AP]

LA will be dethroned. The LAC Lake Show will be dead. So it's time to create a thread to follow the new dynasty.

Going on tour starting this October.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

This is one thing that's definitely worth mentioning.

I think what you saw in the playoffs in the past from LeBron was dominating performances, but you sensed that he just didn't have a killer instinct. He would always start off games as a drive-and-dish guy when they needed him to take over. Against Detroit, he was literally the entire Cavs team in the 4th quarter. Against Orlando, he hit a huge practically half court shot. But when the game was on the line, I just didn't see him take over games the way Jordan and Kobe did on a consistent basis in the playoffs. A lot of times, he went into drive-and-dish mode late in games when everyone wanted to see him just take over.

And I think that's where his legacy falls a little bit behind greats like Jordan and Kobe. Maybe it's because he had just way too many defenders up in his face. But I think we're seeing this year that maybe he just doesn't have the same kind of moxy that Kobe and MJ do. The thing about Kobe and MJ is that they are cocky AND arrogant. The thing that's really come out about LeBron, to me, is that he's cocky but still a bit defensive. And I wonder if that's some of why he's struggling a bit this year with the game on the line.

I'm pretty sure you were one of the fellas I took to raping in the "Who's better, LeBron or Kobe" thread before the playoffs began last season...

Glad to see you've come around

[Halfcan]

Lakers are going to cream them!!

[Halfcan]

Heat will be crying a river!!

[WebGem]

Hold on guys I got a good Heat-hating picture. Just a sec.

[WebGem]

Miami Heat unveil new name, new logo...

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Halfcan

Lakers are going to cream them!!

I'd actually go with the Heat and by a fair amount.

If the line was Heat -6, I'd take give the points. The Lakers are easing into their "yeah, we're pretty good" phase, which usually means they're going to get their ass kicked. They're also looking ahead to that Mavericks game, a huge game for seeding in the West.

The Heat want this win something fierce. I think they'll win and do so relatively easily.

The Heat are a good team because they're loaded with talent. It will be virtually impossible for them to win less than 50 games/season over the next 3 years. That said, they're still put together like shit and are nowhere near the sum of their parts. They're not a juggernaut, they're not a super team. They're just another good team that may/may not win a title.

I have about 5 teams I think are more likely to win it than they are (LA, Dallas, Boston, Chicago and Orlando), but the Heat are absolutely in the discussion.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Oh **** me.

Call me when LeBron drops 80 on a team or averages 35 in a season.

If LeBron averaged 27 shots a game (as Kobe did in the season he averaged 35), he would easily surpass 35 points.

Bryant at his peak was absolutely a more dominant force than LeBron has ever been. Bryant's slowing down now, certainly. But he's also 32 and is in his decline years. That doesn't diminish the fact that he was a damn terror at his apex.

The stats don't show this. Nor does the eye test.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

If LeBron averaged 27 shots a game (as Kobe did in the season he averaged 35), he would easily surpass 35 points.



The stats don't show this. Nor does the eye test.

Does the season where he put up 31.6 on 22.8 shots/gm make you feel any better? Better PPG on fewer SPG than LeBron's best year.

Yes, the stats show this. When Kobe was in his prime he could go off against anyone at any time. Again - do you think there's any chance that LeBron James ever puts up 80?

70?

I think he could probably hit 60, but he hasn't yet. Bryant's done it 4 times.

This is just nonsense. Just because Kobe couldn't run over people doesn't mean he couldn't dominate them. Bryant can score from literally anywhere on the court. LeBron James cannot. The fact that James can play a more physical game does not mean he's ever played a more 'dominant' one.

Just stow the "I don't like Lebron" shit - you're clearly a fanboi.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

If LeBron averaged 27 shots a game (as Kobe did in the season he averaged 35), he would easily surpass 35 points.



The stats don't show this. Nor does the eye test.

LeChoke gets more credit considering what he lacks than any other professional athlete ever. That's the all-time #1 award he deserves. Trying to put him in the same sentence with Kobe is a friggen joke.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Does the season where he put up 31.6 on 22.8 shots/gm make you feel any better? Better PPG on fewer SPG than LeBron's best year.

#1. You can't define player's best years by their scoring averages. LeBron is often better when he isn't scoring and facilitating the ball (in a way that Kobe cannot).

#2. LeBron averaged 31.4 PPG on 23.1 shots/game on better shooting percentages and with more assists than season you are referring to with Kobe.

Yes, the stats show this. When Kobe was in his prime he could go off against anyone at any time. Again - do you think there's any chance that LeBron James ever puts up 80?

#1. The stats show LeBron is a far superior player. I could show you plenty of them (from FG%, to assists and rebounding totals, to offensive and defensive rating, to PER, to TS%, to eFG%, to win shares), but you would probably laugh them off again.

#2. I watched the Kobe game against my Raptors live. They gave him the ball almost every time down the court and he either shot or drove to the hole (he only had 2 assists that game). A great game for him, but yes, I think LeBron could pull something like that off against a Raptors team of that quality with a usage rate that high.

This is just nonsense. Just because Kobe couldn't run over people doesn't mean he couldn't dominate them. Bryant can score from literally anywhere on the court. LeBron James cannot. The fact that James can play a more physical game does not mean he's ever played a more 'dominant' one.

Just stow the "I don't like Lebron" shit - you're clearly a fanboi.

You don't need to tell me what Kobe can or cannot do. He's my favorite player for what he turned himself into through mental toughness and hard work (one of the greatest scorers of all time).

But comparing him to LeBron in terms of dominance? It's laughable, you'd have to be blind to the game to do that seriously.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

#1. You can't define player's best years by their scoring averages. LeBron is often better when he isn't scoring and facilitating the ball (in a way that Kobe cannot).

#2. LeBron averaged 31.4 PPG on 23.1 shots/game on better shooting percentages and with more assists than season you are referring to with Kobe.


#1. The stats show LeBron is a far superior player. I could show you plenty of them (from FG%, to assists and rebounding totals, to offensive and defensive rating, to PER, to TS%, to eFG%, to win shares), but you would probably laugh them off again.

#2. I watched the Kobe game against my Raptors live. They gave him the ball almost every time down the court and he either shot or drove to the hole (he only had 2 assists that game). A great game for him, but yes, I think LeBron could pull something like that off against a Raptors team of that quality with a usage rate that high.



You don't need to tell me what Kobe can or cannot do. He's my favorite player for what he turned himself into through mental toughness and hard work (one of the greatest scorers of all time).

But comparing him to LeBron in terms of dominance? It's laughable, you'd have to be blind to the game to do that seriously.

I think the problem is that you're talking about what LeBron could be vs. what Kobe is. Kobe is an overachiever, Lebron is an underachiever. I agree that Lebron is the more talented/naturally gifted of the two.

But when I judge greatness, it's not scoring averages. It will continue to be: with 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter, who do I want to have the ball? You can't tell me with a straight face that's LeBron. There are quite a few players who I'd rather have with the ball at that time (and hint, one of those players happens to be on LeBron's team).

[KC_Connection]

I still think LeBron is pretty much unstoppable in a way that Kobe and Wade are not when he wants to be (except against perhaps the very best defensive teams). The problem is that he doesn't always want to be.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

I still think LeBron is pretty much unstoppable in a way that Kobe and Wade are not when he wants to be (except against perhaps the very best defensive teams). The problem is that he doesn't always want to be.

That sums it up. And that's the only reason why I think most of us refuse to say he's beyond "great." The problem is that the a lot of those times he chooses not to be unstoppable is late in the game. It happened in Cleveland too. Cleveland wanted to see him take charge and dominate like he did in Detroit. So often, instead, you'd see him play point guard and dish out.

And today, I really think it's a mental thing and who knows if he shakes it off. The problem is that I think he cares a lot more about his image than he lets on and he's overcompensating. He wants to be the guy to put the dagger in the other team's heart and when you're doing that to silence critics instead of doing it because you have a killer instinct and swagger, that's not a good thing.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

#1. You can't define player's best years by their scoring averages. LeBron is often better when he isn't scoring and facilitating the ball (in a way that Kobe cannot).

#2. LeBron averaged 31.4 PPG on 23.1 shots/game on better shooting percentages and with more assists than season you are referring to with Kobe.


#1. The stats show LeBron is a far superior player. I could show you plenty of them (from FG%, to assists and rebounding totals, to offensive and defensive rating, to PER, to TS%, to eFG%, to win shares), but you would probably laugh them off again.

#2. I watched the Kobe game against my Raptors live. They gave him the ball almost every time down the court and he either shot or drove to the hole (he only had 2 assists that game). A great game for him, but yes, I think LeBron could pull something like that off against a Raptors team of that quality with a usage rate that high.



You don't need to tell me what Kobe can or cannot do. He's my favorite player for what he turned himself into through mental toughness and hard work (one of the greatest scorers of all time).

But comparing him to LeBron in terms of dominance? It's laughable, you'd have to be blind to the game to do that seriously.

LeBron DOESN'T seek to control the game.

Kobe does.

You give me this crap about 'efficiency' and what he could do. The bottom line is he doesn't have the stones to actually do it.

He has always had the potential to be the greatest player in NBA history, but he's already coasted through the first half of his career. "LeBron 'could' go off for 81 if he tried...blah blah blah" but he hasn't.

He doesn't.

What stops LeBron is between his ears and always had been. What's he's capable of doing is irrelevant in the context of what's actually been done. Kobe Bryant has actually been the more dominant player. He's actually imposed his will on far more occasions and in far more critical situations. No, he hasn't been as efficient, but that's not what we're discussing.

And spare me the "LeBron facilitates" nonsense because it's been addressed. LeBron is not as good a passer as Kobe is, but he worked in a 1-pass offense in Cleveland where he dominated the ball and often got dimes on simple jumpers. Kobe plays in the triangle where there are multiple passes and the 'money' pass often comes out of the pinch post or the low blocks, many times by a front-court player. It's an entirely different offense.

Everyone in the world will tell you that Michael Jordan was a less selfish player when Phil Jackson showed up. And they'd be absolutely right. But here's the thing - his assists went down when Jackson came on the scene. They leveled off thereafter and continued to decline as Jackson integrated the Triangle more and more.

The Triangle is a horrid offense for assist #s but it gives Bryant and Jordan immense freedom in setting up the offense. Bryant does it exquisitely.

This idea that LeBron is some master facilitator whereas Kobe is just a mercenary is nonsense perpetrated by folks that have their noses buried in stats books. Bryant's a far better passer than LeBron. LeBron's a phenominal passer for his size, but he's just an above average passer for your normal back-court player.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

I still think LeBron is pretty much unstoppable in a way that Kobe and Wade are not when he wants to be (except against perhaps the very best defensive teams). The problem is that he doesn't always want to be.

You didn't really just say this.

You've spent this whole thread arguing that Lebron is a more dominant player then you turn right around and acknowledge that he's mentally soft?

He's capable of being more dominant than Kobe.

But he isn't.