New Pope Is Former Hitler Youth

[|Zach|]

I thought this was a little strange.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...2667_1,00.html

Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth
Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome
THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him.

Although far short of the requisite two-thirds majority of the 115 votes, this would almost certainly give Ratzinger, 78 yesterday, an early lead in the voting. Liberals have yet to settle on a rival candidate who could come close to his tally.

Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue.

“John Paul was hugely appreciated for what he did for and with the Jewish people,” said Lord Janner, head of the Holocaust Education Trust, who is due to attend ceremonies today to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

“If they were to appoint someone who was on the other side in the war, he would start at a disadvantage, although it wouldn’t mean in the long run he wouldn’t be equally understanding of the concerns of the Jewish world.”

The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times.

In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941.

He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer.

Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp.

Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.

He has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime, any open resistance would have been futile — comments echoed this weekend by his elder brother Georg, a retired priest ordained along with the cardinal in 1951.

“Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger said. “Before we were conscripted, one of our teachers said we should fight and become heroic Nazis and another told us not to worry as only one soldier in a thousand was killed. But neither of us ever used a rifle against the enemy.”

Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”

In 1937 another family a few hundred yards away in Traunstein hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter. SS troops repeatedly searched homes in the area looking for the fugitive and his fellow conspirators.

“When he was betrayed and the Nazis came for him, Braxenthaler shot himself because he knew he couldn’t escape,” said Frieda Meyer, 82, Ratzinger’s neighbour and childhood friend. “Even though they had tortured him in Dachau concentration camp he refused to give up his resistance efforts.”

Despite question marks over Ratzinger’s wartime conduct, the main obstacle to his prospects in the conclave — the assembly of cardinals to elect the new pope — is the conservative stance he has adopted as guardian of Catholic orthodoxy since John Paul named him to head the congregation for the doctrine of the faith in 1981.

His condemnations are legion — of women priests, married priests, dissident theologians and homosexuals, whom he has declared to be suffering from an “objective disorder”.

He upset many Jews with a statement in 1987 that Jewish history and scripture reach fulfilment only in Christ — a position denounced by critics as “theological anti-semitism”. He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”.

Some of his staunchest critics are in Germany. A recent poll in Der Spiegel, the news magazine, showed opponents of a Ratzinger papacy outnumbered supporters by 36% to 29%.

As one western cardinal who was in two minds about him put it: “He would probably be a great pope, but I have no idea how I would explain his election back home.”

One liberal theologian,when asked what he thought of a Ratzinger papacy, was more direct: “It fills me with horror.”

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

Since we don't actually know the original intent and only assume the evil that came out of Hitler's reign, we can only guess at the original intent. ....

How much Nazi history have you read.....seriously?

[Logical]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

So, you are seriously making the contention that we are closer to being "Nazis"....than we ever were, even during the height of the Cold War, to adopting a socialistic and communist approach to government?

In the 50s there was a point where our country teetered on the brink of going socialist, then again in the mid to late 60s. The hysteria against it prevented it. It is better to be against this concept on the off chance it could lead to something as awful as the Nazis, but not at all the same.

[Logical]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

How much Nazi history have you read.....seriously?

So you assume the leaders intent was always clear to the people, are you really saying that?

[Logical]

Originally Posted by ENDelt260

Does a bear wear a funny hat?

I think some do to cover their bald spot.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

Fair enough, I guess.

FTR, it AIN'T gonna happen here. I think you know that.

I'd urge you to study Nazi history, then come back and try to make the parallel I guess. I just don't see it.

It's been my understanding that is how they'd like to get around the jolt of a National Draft... Ease it in, so to speak...

And it's my understanding that they want to make it mandatory for all citizens once they become "of age."

So then... Without having to even crack a book, it's my understanding that the Hitler Youth program was mandatory as well, correct? So what's the difference then?

How can you not see a parallel between one government forcing their youth into service and another government forcing their youth into service? To make it simple, In one example, the government is forcing their youth into service. In the next, the government is forcing their youth into service. See how they relate?

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

In the 50s there was a point where our country teetered on the brink of going socialist, then again in the mid to late 60s. The hysteria against it prevented it. It is better to be against this concept on the off chance it could lead to something as awful as the Nazis, but not at all the same.

Well, with that explanation....at least you are consistent. Many called such "hysteria" in the 50s and 60s as "unwarranted," but now wish to call attention to what they consider a move toward communism.

You are....eh, "experienced" enough, Jim; maybe you can educate us, seriously. The nation has ALWAYS compromised personally liberties during war and times of national crisis.....has it not? Civil war.....Lincoln suspended habeous corpus; WWI, the SC validated "suppression" of free speech on the basis of the "clear and present danger rule," and during WWII Karamatsu v. the U.S. validated internment of Japanese citizens (large numbers I might add.)

9/11 and the subsequent "War on Terrorism" is disconcerting to civil libertarians, sure....but it is certainly NOT unprecedented.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

So you assume the leaders intent was always clear to the people, are you really saying that?

Within 4-5 yrs (by 1938) Hitler's "intent" was CRYSTAL clear. Rationalized and justified, but clear nonetheless.

[Taco John]

Half a decade!

[Logical]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

Well, with that explanation....at least you are consistent. Many called such "hysteria" in the 50s and 60s as "unwarranted," but now wish to call attention to what they consider a move toward communism.

You are....eh, "experienced" enough, Jim; maybe you can educate us, seriously. The nation has ALWAYS compromised personally liberties during war and times of national crisis.....has it not? Civil war.....Lincoln suspended habeous corpus; WWI, the SC validated "suppression" of free speech on the basis of the "clear and present danger rule," and during WWII Karamatsu v. the U.S. validated internment of Japanese citizens (large numbers I might add.)

9/11 and the subsequent "War on Terrorism" is disconcerting to civil libertarians, sure....but it is certainly NOT unprecedented.

This concept has nothing to do with 9/11 it was started before that. The scary thing was that it had a certain amount of bipartisan support, but not enough to get it passed. I do not know if you were intentionally shifting the focus, but if you were it was a misplaced effort.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Taco John

It's been my understanding that is how they'd like to get around the jolt of a National Draft... Ease it in, so to speak...

And it's my understanding that they want to make it mandatory for all citizens once they become "of age."

I'd respectfully submit that your premise here is flawed....it AIN'T gonna happen. We have a DEMOCRACY; we will stop it. The Germans didn't have a democracy, and couldn't stop it. That's the most important difference, really.

[Taco John]

I'm reminded of the time I stood above a natural water slide in the forest near Sun Valley, Idaho. The water pouring over the rock looked stable enough, so I simply put a foot out onto that slope... that, slippery slope. Ther results were completely unexpected and uncontrollable. I went careening down this slide with a desperate and uncontrollable abandon.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic here... But man was that a slippery slope...

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Taco John

Half a decade!

He ruled for 13 yrs. That LAST 8 were the most important; and people had no real choices at that point.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Taco John

I'm reminded of the time I stood above a natural water slide in the forest near Sun Valley, Idaho. The water pouring over the rock looked stable enough, so I simply put a foot out onto that slope... that, slippery slope. Ther results were completely unexpected and uncontrollable. I went careening down this slide with a desperate and uncontrollable abandon.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic here... But man was that a slippery slope...

But if one were to DARE to use the "slippery slope" argument in other debates (say, gay marriage) you are one of the first to dismiss it.....ahhh, the irony. Heh.

[Logical]

Originally Posted by Taco John

I'm reminded of the time I stood above a natural water slide in the forest near Sun Valley, Idaho. The water pouring over the rock looked stable enough, so I simply put a foot out onto that slope... that, slippery slope. Ther results were completely unexpected and uncontrollable. I went careening down this slide with a desperate and uncontrollable abandon.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic here... But man was that a slippery slope...

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

I'd respectfully submit that your premise here is flawed....it AIN'T gonna happen. We have a DEMOCRACY; we will stop it. The Germans didn't have a democracy, and couldn't stop it. That's the most important difference, really.

Actually, we have a Republic. Which means that other people can make it happen if they hear the right case in favor of it. And I never said it *WAS* going to happen anyway. I said it has been bandied about for awhile now. This "National Service" thing is nothing new under the sun. I don't know where you get the idea that it absolutely "Ain't" going to happen. I'd have never guessed the government would be allowed to monitor every email communication an American sent out, but guess what?