Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant

[Rain Man]

Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off.

We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May.

Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice!

Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP.

It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door.

Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by Iowanian

I do understand that Kevin...........and agree for the most part.

But, basically what you're saying, is that its a solvent Business decision, for an employER to look out for the best financial/business decision of his company, but the employee doesn't have the same right with their finanial/professional situation?

Yeah, and I agree with that as long as no one intentionally violated a commitment. I'll talk to her about this more during her exit interview, and if she literally got a call out of the blue (very unlikely for a college student, but possible) with an offer that she couldn't resist, then I'll understand it. But if she was still trooping to the Career Center and signing up for interviews, my conclusion will be that she didn't honor her word in accepting my offer. It's less about work than about her dinking around with something serious like a job offer.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

This in my opinion is a bad idea. First the employee has followed society and business's standard practice of giving two weeks notice. Most companies that let people go in such an instance give the employee the two weeks pay.

There are two reasons for this, first it sets a horrible precedent with all your other employees, as an employer you will now be looked at as not an employee friendly company and also it will make it likely you will no longer receive notice from any employee. In some cases this won't hurt your business in others it might be devastating. Second if that employee has any cause however minor for a harassment or other lawsuit against you they will be highly likely to file it. As we all know even if you win you lose with the high cost of lawyer fees and time lost in adjudication.

There's the main part. If you do this to people, then you can expect to stop getting 2 weeks notice. More like "Friday at lunch notice"...

"Hey, today's my last day. By the way, I'm using my lunch hour to pack up my stuff. Bye!"

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

Well there is no question that benefits have deteriorated badly over the years I have been in business. Loyalty to employees is more a business to business issue. Loyalty from employees as a self preservation issue has definitely decreased over the years and rightfully so given the overall job market conditions. So in general I would answer your question that no this is not a "in the good old days" rant.

I'm nto that old, but I'd agree with this just based on a simple understanding of job turnover rates, reduction in long-term benefits, employment security and other factors that make being in the workforce very different in 2005 as compared to, say, 1965 or even 1985.

[Rain Man]

My take is that I'll honor someone's two-week notice as long as I know they're not going to a direct competitor and that they're not a security risk. I haven't had many people quit since we're a small business, but when they have, they've often been inclined to work hard to leave a good memory of themselves. Funny how that works.

[ROYC75]

Originally Posted by Iowanian

In the end, I found acceptable employment and within a year, that company was bankrupt. Personally, I liked the owner, who for the most part treated me well. As an employee, because I liked him and felt he treated me well, I stayed on to finish those contracts out of loyalty, even when other offers were there. I was trying to build something for him, as well as a professional reputation.

His Chop block on me, not only hurt his company(because word did spread quickly in this industry), but my name was associated with his actions.

I have seen the guy a couple of times, and I do appreciate the oportunity he gave me initially, but in the end , he did hose me.

I just know that for every roofing contractor that is mad because the guy he hires for $8 isn't "loyal" and quits for a $10 job that he can work in the rain.........there are some worker bees who have been stung by the queen.

College kids take jobs and are let go for a plethora of reasons every day....after they have relocated, purchased homes, signed leases.......sometimes for job performance, sometimes financial problems in the company, whatever. Rarely does the employer seem to care about that employees financial obligations when they let them go, or send them home for the 4th rain day this week with no pay.

In general, I'd like to agree with you rainman...because my word and a handshake are binding contracts in my mind. The problem is, that life has taught me that they aren't in business.

raise your hand if you don't know someone, who was a loyal employee, whose company was bought out, and their position downsized or relocated?

Understanding all to well. The GM job I spoke of lasted for 4 1/2 years. I hired on as a dispatcher, thru the process of good work and management positions changing I moved up the ladder quick. The previous GM was having issues with the owner to do things the way the owner wanted. The owner claimed it was a finacial issues where the presennt GM claimed it was more of a personell issue. They parted ways and opened the door for me.

Right away knowing it was an issue on both ends, that was the first place to attack the problem. I knew drivers were skimming fuel for cash at the pumps with fuel cards and knew that the owner didn't treat the quality drivers with a performance based reward for doing good work.

I implemented a plan to appeal to both quality drivers and owner to find that 60% of the 20 current drivers were scamming fuel. naturally that left me with issues with 12 drivers, whom 8 quit right away and the other 4 were fired within a month. having idle equiptment was costly and the owner was livid. It took me 4 months of finding quality drivers to replace them with. Guys would come and go , stay for a week, 2 weeks, a month, etc.

Problem was the owner would not pay enough money to the drivers to retain them.

The company was going down hill before I took over and an owner that would not adjust to the needed changes to survive. He sold off the equiptment and kept the lease trucks, but even they didn't like his demeanor and style. I rode with said owner knowing someday I might not get a check thru the rough times, backruptcy and all. Even moved his offices by myself twice.

To make the rest of this story shorter, my loyalty to the owner and the customer base we had is my current cutomer base I have now in my own business. When closed up the doors, I opened up the next week and have been doing it every since. I think many of you here can recall when this happened during the samr time my mother died in 2001.

Being a loyal employee can pay off if the oppertunity is there.

[yunghungwell]

Originally Posted by jspchief

But I have to say that things like rain days are part of the deal when you get a construction job,..

Yeah, and getting some dumbass who can't read a tape measure is part of owing a construction business. They don't always show they are so dumb right away.

In college I was helping a guy lay out a small footer, and he was trying to "get things square with the world." This is a guy who has built many things and had a background in construction type work. I suggested that we measure a corner to see if it made a 3-4-5 triangle. He didn't know what I was talking about, and when I tried to explain he got confused and pissed off. What dumb fock! I guess if it looks square, it must be square.

[ROYC75]

Originally Posted by yunghungwell

Yeah, and getting some dumbass who can't read a tape measure is part of owing a construction business. They don't always show they are so dumb right away.

In college I was helping a guy lay out a small footer, and he was trying to "get things square with the world." This is a guy who has built many things and had a background in construction type work. I suggested that we measure a corner to see if it made a 3-4-5 triangle. He didn't know what I was talking about, and when I tried to explain he got confused and pissed off. What dumb fock! I guess if it looks square, it must be square.

3-4-5 triangle ? Please explain, I know nothing of this . BTW, what happened to 1 and 2 ?

Why could it not be called a 1-2-3 triangle or just a triangle ?

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by yunghungwell

Yeah, and getting some dumbass who can't read a tape measure is part of owing a construction business. They don't always show they are so dumb right away.

In college I was helping a guy lay out a small footer, and he was trying to "get things square with the world." This is a guy who has built many things and had a background in construction type work. I suggested that we measure a corner to see if it made a 3-4-5 triangle. He didn't know what I was talking about, and when I tried to explain he got confused and pissed off. What dumb fock! I guess if it looks square, it must be square.

Not sure what the relevance is, but I agree with what you're saying.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by ROYC75

3-4-5 triangle ? Please explain, I know nothing of this . BTW, what happened to 1 and 2 ?

Why could it not be called a 1-2-3 triangle or just a triangle ?

The 1-2-3 triangles all leak.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by ROYC75

3-4-5 triangle ? Please explain, I know nothing of this . BTW, what happened to 1 and 2 ?

Why could it not be called a 1-2-3 triangle or just a triangle ?

It's a method for determining a right angle.

A right triangle's three sides are always a 3-4-5 ratio. So say I want to make two boards a perfect 90 degree angle. I measure 3 feet down 1 board, 4 feet down the other, then the hypotenuse of my triangle hhas to be 5 feet.

If one side of a right triangle is 9 feet, another side will be 12 feet, and the hypotenuse will be 15 feet.

[yunghungwell]

Originally Posted by ROYC75

3-4-5 triangle ? Please explain, I know nothing of this . BTW, what happened to 1 and 2 ?

A 3-4-5 triangle is a special right triangle in which the two short sides measure 3 units and 4 units respectively and the hypotenuse measues 5 units. The unit can be any unit of measure and the right angle is the angle opposite the longest side, the hypotenuse.

The 3-4-5 triangle

[yunghungwell]

jsp,

The relevance was about risk. You expect an employee to accept the risk of not working during a rainy week. You must accept the risk of running a business in which the employment pool doesn’t always offer the most intelligent or reliable candidate.

Now, I am not saying that you do not accept that risk, or that once you get some deadbeat that is unreliable you should always pay that person to stay around for an additional two weeks. You paint a certain picture, a picture in which you say there are certain different situations, which require you to react differently, but you compare a longtime employee to one that has only worked for you for 4 months. What if the employee that had only worked for you for 4 months needed hardly any training, caught on quickly, and couldn't avoid having to quit your job? Doesn't he/she deserve the return courtesy after giving you two weeks notice?

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by yunghungwell

jsp,

The relevance was about risk. You expect an employee to accept the risk of not working during a rainy week. You must accept the risk of running a business in which the employment pool doesn’t always offer the most intelligent or reliable candidate.

Now, I am not saying that you do not accept that risk, or that once you get some deadbeat that is unreliable you should always pay that person to stay around for an additional two weeks. You paint a certain picture, a picture in which you say there are certain different situations, which require you to react differently, but you compare a longtime employee to one that has only worked for you for 4 months. What if the employee that had only worked for you for 4 months needed hardly any training, caught on quickly, and couldn't avoid having to quit your job? Doesn't he/she deserve the return courtesy after giving you two weeks notice?

Yea, um, okay. I didn't realize that I needed to list every single possible scenario.

My point was, there are mitigating circumstances, where I may feel an employee is worthy of keeping for those two weeks, or not worthy. The "4 months" was just one example.

If you are trying to convince me that some people deserve to be treated better when they quit than others, I've already said the exact same thing.

And that still has nothing to do with what I was saying about rain days being part of the job.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

My take is that I'll honor someone's two-week notice as long as I know they're not going to a direct competitor and that they're not a security risk. I haven't had many people quit since we're a small business, but when they have, they've often been inclined to work hard to leave a good memory of themselves. Funny how that works.

I'd imagine that you generate a significant sense of loyalty in your employees (when they stick around long enough to figure it out) and that they recognize that you are a fair guy and treat you respectfully in return.

One thing you might consider is to ask this girl if she knows anyone who is qualified and who might be looking for that kind of job. You may not be interested in taking a chance on her friends (and that would be understandable), but if you determine during the course of her exit interview that she didn't really understand the kind of bind she was putting you in, she might be a good source for leads on a capable replacement.

[Rain Man]

Good idea, patteeu. I think it'll make her feel guilty, too.


Interestingly, I found out that she beat out her former roommate for the job, and apparently there's some (pre-existing) friction there. Since the roommate was a top contender as well, I may coincidentally go for the vengeful roommate hire.