Chiefs Has our defense been HARSHLY judged? - Page 16

UChieffyBugger · 04:41 PM

It seems to be in fashion to knock the Chiefs defense. WE as fans slaughter them daily, the local press slaughter then daily, the NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL media slaughter them daily, and when I sit and think about the circumstances sounding that group, one could argue that they are getting judged a little harshly.

Now let's start with the preseason. Ragland and Hitchens played ONE warm-up together against the Bears and both missed several practice sessions. Nelson got knocked out of the Atlanta game and missed sessions himself, whilst Parker wasn't even In our building during the preseason. Then we have Ford who Is just returning to the team after being out for most of last season, and Houston barely played In the warm-up games himself.

Last year there was a perception that we had "the worst defense known to man", but I argued it was an overblown notion because the reality was that we were around fifteenth In the points allowed tally. But that notion has stuck with the team and now this unit that has barely played together Is thrown together and Is trying to both gel as a unit and get their football legs going all whilst facing TWO quality offenses on the road. The Pats defense started off badly too last year and then managed to be a decent unit until the superbowl where they contrived to drop their best corner, so there is a clear example of how things can change quickly In this game.

DJ's left nut · 09-24-2018, 02:51 PM

I will reiterate - if we'd have done in the Colts playoff game what we've done in these last few games defensively, we'd have won. The defense doesn't look good, but it's played very well for a quarter or even two at a time before trying to bleed clock.

Say you don't like it, but it's getting wins. And when they can hold the Steelers to 1 true offensive TD in the 2nd half last week (Conley's fumble game them a 2nd) and throttled the 49ers through the first this week, we know there is a gear there.

My real question though is talent based - are they faster? And I don't mean play speed - I mean pure athleticism; is this a faster team than last season's squad?

You look at the replacements and you have to say yes, right? DJ replaced by Hitchens, Zombo replaced by Ford, Peters replaced by Fuller and Sorenson replaced by Murray. The rest are largely reshuffled deck chairs but the same guys, right?

Give back a bit from Houston if you'd like and you'd still have to concede that team speed is better, right? And that was easily our biggest problem to me last season.

So if the athleticism is improved, wouldn't it stand to reason that we'd see performance improve with reps? Maybe not with Murray because man, he looks completely unaware out there. But I have to think we have some untapped ceiling here when these guys just get more accustomed to playing together.

I refuse to believe this defense is truly this bad. There's talent out there but play after play after play, they have a serious breakdown. That's a familiarity issue.

O.city · 09-24-2018, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Deep into the 4Q. Not in the 3rd sometimes even 2nd quarter. It's almost as if Reid has cue cards that say as soon as you're up by 10 or more, immediately cue ultra conservative mode.

When you're up by 4 scores? Yeah.

DJ's left nut · 09-24-2018, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Deep into the 4Q. Not in the 3rd sometimes even 2nd quarter. It's almost as if Reid has cue cards that say as soon as you're up by 10 or more, immediately cue ultra conservative mode.

If you can find me any indication that Reid is dictating calls to Sutton, I'll listen. I just don't think he is. Now maybe that's a passive failure on his part but I still don't think he gets in Suttons way. That's just never been his style going all the way back to his Eagles days.

I think Sutton's just coaching scared and has been for 2-3 years. The talent issue last year was so stark that 'bend don't break' was the best he could do. And now they're playing stupid and undisciplined so he's afraid to take the top off and give up 2 minute scoring drives.

Sutton didn't suddenly forget how to call the exotic blitzes that were his calling card when he first got here. He knows how to do all that stuff - he just won't. And I think it's because he was scared to death of breakdowns due to talent last year and discipline this year. He doesn't have a group he trusts and it shows, especially when they get a lead.

Molitoth · 09-24-2018, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Deep into the 4Q. Not in the 3rd sometimes even 2nd quarter. It's almost as if Reid has cue cards that say as soon as you're up by 10 or more, immediately cue ultra conservative mode.

and this is where the conspiracy theorists come in...

There is no logical reason why you go conservative in the 2nd or 3rd Quarter.
The only explanation would be that there is some type of stimulus for close games. The NFL is not making money from blowouts.

Eleazar · 09-24-2018, 02:55 PM

I could buy that it's an issue with a few players being familiar with the scheme if these were new players having problems that were suddenly appearing at the start of this season, but they aren't. These are players who should know the system inside and out by now, they just aren't good enough. When a guy continually blows his assignments and misses tackles the way Murray does for example it's not a teachable moment. He's just not good enough for the role he's in.

The defense has been declining for a few years now. For the previous two years they got worse and worse in yards allowed, and now the turnovers have dried up so they are completely exposed. The team either hasn't recognized what's going on or they have and have failed to address it.

DJ's left nut · 09-24-2018, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

When you're up by 4 scores? Yeah.

Win by 11 with the ball in your hands at 0:00 after your defense gacks an easy 3rd and 16 due to poor play execution and your #2 TE drops another drive sustaining first down and suddenly you have to answer for not winning by enough.

Reid managed the clock perfectly on Sunday but suddenly we have a group of 'scoreboard truthers' who just hate not winning by 20.

That was a stroll home.

DJ's left nut · 09-24-2018, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molitoth

and this is where the conspiracy theorists come in...

There is no logical reason why you go conservative in the 2nd or 3rd Quarter.
The only explanation would be that there is some type of stimulus for close games. The NFL is not making money from blowouts.

The Chiefs win the football game in Indy had they gone into a shell in the 3rd quarter instead of letting Luck bomb passes over their heads. They'd have won had they simply run the ball and milked clock instead of throwing wheel routes to 3rd string RBs and forcing the ball to Donnie Avery.

With a 4 score lead, taking the air out of the football in the 3rd is wholly defensible.

O.city · 09-24-2018, 02:58 PM

They have 7 new starters on D this year. I'd say they recognized it and addressed it.

Whether it's worked is obvious

Molitoth · 09-24-2018, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Win by 11 with the ball in your hands at 0:00 after your defense gacks an easy 3rd and 16 due to poor play execution and your #2 TE drops another drive sustaining TD and suddenly you have to answer for not winning by enough.

Reid managed the clock perfectly on Sunday but suddenly we have a group of 'scoreboard truthers' who just hate not winning by 20.

That was a stroll home.

I don't think people have been tremendously worried about the last 3 games...
it's the memories of the 2 playoff collapses that is still burnt into fans minds.

Because Chiefs.... I don't really think you can blame them for the beaten dog syndrome.

O.city · 09-24-2018, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Win by 11 with the ball in your hands at 0:00 after your defense gacks an easy 3rd and 16 due to poor play execution and your #2 TE drops another drive sustaining TD and suddenly you have to answer for not winning by enough.

Reid managed the clock perfectly on Sunday but suddenly we have a group of 'scoreboard truthers' who just hate not winning by 20.

That was a stroll home.

Win by 3 scores or don't win at all damn you.

Of course we could be in the 9ers shoes and kick a field goal to cut if from a 2 score game to a 2 score game with 4 minutes left in the game.

DJ's left nut · 09-24-2018, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

They have 7 new starters on D this year. I'd say they recognized it and addressed it.

Whether it's worked is obvious

I guess we got spoiled by the 2013 'turnaround'?

We did some serious defensive overhauling and it paid pretty significant dividends pretty quickly. But maybe we just underestimated just how much change was happening to this squad.

The 2013 team made some additions but I guess its core group was largely unchanged as they aged into their primes. So what seemed like a true rebuild wasn't quite as drastic as it seemed. And now this one is.

Because these guys really don't seem to have any idea how to play with each other. It's like watching a rec team try to play zone defense for flag football. There's just no synergy out there and they're constantly stepping on each other's zones (and leaving their own exposed).

Reps have to help....don't they? The personnel has been brought up to average to maybe slightly below. It's better than its performance by a fair amount, IMO. It has to be a rep issue.

O.city · 09-24-2018, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I guess we got spoiled by the 2013 'turnaround'?

We did some serious defensive overhauling and it paid pretty significant dividends pretty quickly. But maybe we just underestimated just how much change was happening to this squad.

The 2013 team made some additions but I guess its core group was largely unchanged as they aged into their primes. So what seemed like a true rebuild wasn't quite as drastic as it seemed. And now this one is.

Because these guys really don't seem to have any idea how to play with each other. It's like watching a rec team try to play zone defense for flag football. There's just no synergy out there and they're constantly stepping on each other's zones (and leaving their own exposed).

Reps have to help....don't they? The personnel has been brought up to average to maybe slightly below. It's better than its performance by a fair amount, IMO. It has to be a rep issue.

I dunno man. I got crapped on all preseason by talking about how practicing and playing matter so I'm probably not the one to talk to about it.

DJ's left nut · 09-24-2018, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

Win by 3 scores or don't win at all damn you.

Of course we could be in the 9ers shoes and kick a field goal to cut if from a 2 score game to a 2 score game with 4 minutes left in the game.

It doesn't count if you don't cover.

{checks lines}

Nevermind. I guess it doesn't count if you don't cover by enough.

htismaqe · 09-24-2018, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

It doesn't count if you don't cover.

{checks lines}

Nevermind. I guess it doesn't count if you don't cover by enough.

chiefzilla1501 · 09-24-2018, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

If you can find me any indication that Reid is dictating calls to Sutton, I'll listen. I just don't think he is. Now maybe that's a passive failure on his part but I still don't think he gets in Suttons way. That's just never been his style going all the way back to his Eagles days.

I think Sutton's just coaching scared and has been for 2-3 years. The talent issue last year was so stark that 'bend don't break' was the best he could do. And now they're playing stupid and undisciplined so he's afraid to take the top off and give up 2 minute scoring drives.

Sutton didn't suddenly forget how to call the exotic blitzes that were his calling card when he first got here. He knows how to do all that stuff - he just won't. And I think it's because he was scared to death of breakdowns due to talent last year and discipline this year. He doesn't have a group he trusts and it shows, especially when they get a lead.

Then fire him and let's find out. Because whatever he is doing is going to hurt us in a game that matters. The reason I think Reid has influence on this is because the offense turtles up too, and I can't imagine it's because the offense magically loses its productivity at the same point in every single game. I don't think it's because mahomes magically forgets how to produce at the same point every single game. It was easy to blame this in the past on Alex Smith. But mahomes... We know he could have shredded sf in the second half if allowed to. It worked today, but again this is exactly the mentality that failed us with Indy and Tennessee.

09-21-2018, 04:35 PM
UChieffyBugger CP'S "MOST HATED" 😆 Join Date: Feb 2018 Casino cash: $2230400	Has our defense been HARSHLY judged? It seems to be in fashion to knock the Chiefs defense. WE as fans slaughter them daily, the local press slaughter then daily, the NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL media slaughter them daily, and when I sit and think about the circumstances sounding that group, one could argue that they are getting judged a little harshly. Now let's start with the preseason. Ragland and Hitchens played ONE warm-up together against the Bears and both missed several practice sessions. Nelson got knocked out of the Atlanta game and missed sessions himself, whilst Parker wasn't even In our building during the preseason. Then we have Ford who Is just returning to the team after being out for most of last season, and Houston barely played In the warm-up games himself. Last year there was a perception that we had "the worst defense known to man", but I argued it was an overblown notion because the reality was that we were around fifteenth In the points allowed tally. But that notion has stuck with the team and now this unit that has barely played together Is thrown together and Is trying to both gel as a unit and get their football legs going all whilst facing TWO quality offenses on the road. The Pats defense started off badly too last year and then managed to be a decent unit until the superbowl where they contrived to drop their best corner, so there is a clear example of how things can change quickly In this game. Last edited by UChieffyBugger; 09-21-2018 at 04:41 PM..
Posts: 4,486

09-24-2018, 02:51 PM	#226
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $2619099	I will reiterate - if we'd have done in the Colts playoff game what we've done in these last few games defensively, we'd have won. The defense doesn't look good, but it's played very well for a quarter or even two at a time before trying to bleed clock. Say you don't like it, but it's getting wins. And when they can hold the Steelers to 1 true offensive TD in the 2nd half last week (Conley's fumble game them a 2nd) and throttled the 49ers through the first this week, we know there is a gear there. My real question though is talent based - are they faster? And I don't mean play speed - I mean pure athleticism; is this a faster team than last season's squad? You look at the replacements and you have to say yes, right? DJ replaced by Hitchens, Zombo replaced by Ford, Peters replaced by Fuller and Sorenson replaced by Murray. The rest are largely reshuffled deck chairs but the same guys, right? Give back a bit from Houston if you'd like and you'd still have to concede that team speed is better, right? And that was easily our biggest problem to me last season. So if the athleticism is improved, wouldn't it stand to reason that we'd see performance improve with reps? Maybe not with Murray because man, he looks completely unaware out there. But I have to think we have some untapped ceiling here when these guys just get more accustomed to playing together. I refuse to believe this defense is truly this bad. There's talent out there but play after play after play, they have a serious breakdown. That's a familiarity issue. __________________ "If there's a god, he's laughing at us.....and our football team..." "When you look at something through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
Posts: 60,864	1 0

09-24-2018, 02:55 PM	#230
Eleazar Beyond the Rapids Join Date: May 2003 Location: Langley, VA Casino cash: $-370000	I could buy that it's an issue with a few players being familiar with the scheme if these were new players having problems that were suddenly appearing at the start of this season, but they aren't. These are players who should know the system inside and out by now, they just aren't good enough. When a guy continually blows his assignments and misses tackles the way Murray does for example it's not a teachable moment. He's just not good enough for the role he's in. The defense has been declining for a few years now. For the previous two years they got worse and worse in yards allowed, and now the turnovers have dried up so they are completely exposed. The team either hasn't recognized what's going on or they have and have failed to address it.
Posts: 80,659	1 0

09-24-2018, 02:58 PM	#233
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $2414064	They have 7 new starters on D this year. I'd say they recognized it and addressed it. Whether it's worked is obvious
Posts: 81,533