How do you feel about Derek Jeter?

[Deberg_1990]

6 hits away from 3000.......

Underrated? Overrated? Rated just about right?

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I think everybody places more value on offensive production, and they should. I am glad Ozzie got credit for his defense. Much like Pudge (who was a bad hitter early in his career). And much like Trout continues to get snubbed for some dumbshit reason even though he's an outstanding defender.

But if we're talking about the best of the best, you've got to hold some small weight on the opposite side of the ball. Ozzie was an elite fielder, an average hitter with absolutely no power, and an outstanding baserunner. Jeter was solid but unspectacular on the field, an excellent hitter with above average pop for a shortstop, excellent on the bases. A very multi-dimensional shortstop.

Spot on...

[BigCatDaddy]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I think everybody places more value on offensive production, and they should. I am glad Ozzie got credit for his defense. Much like Pudge (who was a bad hitter early in his career). And much like Trout continues to get snubbed for some dumbshit reason even though he's an outstanding defender.

But if we're talking about the best of the best, you've got to hold some small weight on the opposite side of the ball. Ozzie was an elite fielder, an average hitter with absolutely no power, and an outstanding baserunner. Jeter was solid but unspectacular on the field, an excellent hitter with above average pop for a shortstop, excellent on the bases. A very multi-dimensional shortstop.

We aren't going to see eye to eye on this one. You obviously undervalue defense and it's value which is why I keep referencing WAR because it is objective. You are subjective to what you value, but WAR has no preference. Your value is what your value is no matter if it's as elite defender, home run hitter or guy that hits for average. It takes everything into consideration and tells you what you are. You seem to like offense so you are bias towards offensive players.

[BigCatDaddy]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

So, because Barry Larkin didn't play in as many WS games we are safe to assume that he would have continued to produce a 950 OPS, based upon a sample of four games?

Makes sense.

Also, that Yankee dynasty was not built upon free agency but an elite farm system that could only have existed because Steinbrenner was banned from baseball and Stick Mitchell constructed it from nothing.

I have no clue as to what he he would have done if given the chance. That goes with a lot of players.

It was a combination of both and their ability to resign their elite farm system guys factored in as well. Very few teams could have done that.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy

We aren't going to see eye to eye on this one. You obviously undervalue defense and it's value which is why I keep referencing WAR because it is objective. You are subjective to what you value, but WAR has no preference. Your value is what your value is no matter if it's as elite defender, home run hitter or guy that hits for average. It takes everything into consideration and tells you what you are. You seem to like offense so you are bias towards offensive players.

WAR isn't objective. Nobody seems to know how it's actually calculated and it's not accurate. Even the most gung ho sabermetrics people will tell you you have to account for +/- 1 when doing the calculation because there's so much error in the calculation.

I think Ozzie was an excellent player. But hitting 28 career home runs isn't some small thing. That's a really low number for any hall of famer and it's not something that can be easily overlooked and it's not like he's countering that with a .300+ average. For Jeter, fielding was the only thing he couldn't do and in his peak years, he wasn't that bad at it. Jeter's WAR numbers get dinged big time because he was sloppy early in his career (remember, he started playing at 20) and really lost his step late in his career. Any sensible team would have moved him to a position like 2B in the back end of his career.

[KC_Connection]

I feel like the stonemason about Jeter.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

WAR isn't objective. Nobody seems to know how it's actually calculated and it's not accurate. Even the most gung ho sabermetrics people will tell you you have to account for +/- 1 when doing the calculation because there's so much error in the calculation.

.

That is completely wrong.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/

[runnercyclist]

He is a Yankee so I don't like him

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

That is completely wrong.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/

What was wrong with what I said? In this case, there are two interpretations of what WAR really means. And even the creator of the fWar score warns against trying to use it to make close comparisons. As the author says, it's meant to compare all stars to non all stars. It's not meant to compare two mostly close in comparison all stars and determine which is better.