These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You have spent a lot of time being self righteous here, no?

You could say that. I am very confident that what these fools did was wrong and should be punished; I don't feel bad at all for my intolerance of their "beliefs" that it's okay to let your child die.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Interesting; I'll play, although I suspect you just want to change the subject. Do an advanced titles search for Jenson71 with the word "abortion." You will find three entries. The last one you might consider particularly interesting.

No I don't want to change the subject. I want to see your moral outrage in the same vehement level that you have levied against the family in question. I also want you to defend your stance of being this pissed about one girl and so passive about the millions that have been aborted since Roe V Wade.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

You could say that. I am very confident that what these fools did was wrong and should be punished; I don't feel bad at all for my intolerance of their "beliefs" that it's okay to let your child die.

Who said they said it's OK for their child to die? YOU, how dare you make that assumption! Your intolerance is something that will serve you well in the future, good luck with that. The total ignorance of the matter is what is more troubling to me than anything. As a young person you are going to be living in this world longer than many of the rest here and that attitude gives me concern for the future of this country.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

I seems to have bypassed your level of understanding that the parents did not see these as life threatening symptoms.

I would consider that a lack of common sense and a danger for their remaining children, to the extent that they should be punished and their remaining children should be taken away.

They have other kids, do you think they are all dead because the parents did not take them to the doctor when those symptoms may have been displayed by the others?

Their other children obviously never had diabetic ketoacidosis.

Which part of the fact that these people are not and were not doctors has gotten by you?

Nothing. I fully understand that they were not doctors nor ever were nor ever will be.

[BucEyedPea]

The thing that I see that could hurt them is that they said they also had nothing against doctors and even used on before.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by a1na2

If your religion tells you that you are not practicing a religion but a cult.

Who are you to determine that someone's belief in something is a cult and not religion? You don't have that power.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

No I don't want to change the subject. I want to see your moral outrage in the same vehement level that you have levied against the family in question. I also want you to defend your stance of being this pissed about one girl and so passive about the millions that have been aborted since Roe V Wade.

You read the links right? That's just in threads where the title mentioned abortion. I assume I've talked about it in other threads that may not have had the word in the thread title, but I can't remember any specifically as of now.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Who said they said it's OK for their child to die? YOU, how dare you make that assumption! Your intolerance is something that will serve you well in the future, good luck with that. The total ignorance of the matter is what is more troubling to me than anything. As a young person you are going to be living in this world longer than many of the rest here and that attitude gives me concern for the future of this country.

Yes, I will defend a child's right to life and get medical care, and not feel bad about that or how horrible that will make the future of this country.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Their other children obviously never had diabetic ketoacidosis.

Nothing. I fully understand that they were not doctors nor ever were nor ever will be.

You do not know that the other kids were not diabetic and had the same symptoms. If this girl had type I diabetes there is a very good chance that the other three did as well and if they did, or any one of them did, who is to say that they had the same symptoms and recovered? In that light what would a prudent parent do if they saw the same symptoms in a second child? They would have done what worked before, prayer and treating them as they did the first child. This is speculation but it bears something to think about. Did the other kids have diabetes and did they show those same symptoms?

You understand that they were not doctors yet you still blame them for not recognizing the symptoms that could have been many other other problems? I find that amazing to say the least.

Also, are you aware that diabetes is generally inherited from the parents? My mothers side of the family almost all had adult onset/type II in their lives. My mother dies of complications from diabetes, should I be criminally liable and in jail for not getting her to the doctor when she had symptoms? I had been trained as an EMT at the time of her death.

The other three kids had

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Yes, I will defend a child's right to life and get medical care, and not feel bad about that or how horrible that will make the future of this country.

Right now you are fighting a war of words and are not gaining any ground because you do not have all the facts and are working on emotions. It seems as if you do not have any concern for what is actually right and what is needed. You are young, I wish you luck when you reach an age that you can realize that your youthful outrage is nothing more than misapplied emotional stress brought on by a situation that you do not understand fully.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You do not know that the other kids were not diabetic and had the same symptoms. If this girl had type I diabetes there is a very good chance that the other three did as well and if they did, or any one of them did, who is to say that they had the same symptoms and recovered? In that light what would a prudent parent do if they saw the same symptoms in a second child? They would have done what worked before, prayer and treating them as they did the first child. This is speculation but it bears something to think about. Did the other kids have diabetes and did they show those same symptoms?

You understand that they were not doctors yet you still blame them for not recognizing the symptoms that could have been many other other problems? I find that amazing to say the least.

Also, are you aware that diabetes is generally inherited from the parents? My mothers side of the family almost all had adult onset/type II in their lives. My mother dies of complications from diabetes, should I be criminally liable and in jail for not getting her to the doctor when she had symptoms? I had been trained as an EMT at the time of her death.

The other three kids had

The only problem is...is that your Mom was an adult.....not a child who couldn't care for themselves.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You do not know that the other kids were not diabetic and had the same symptoms.

It is positive their other children did not have untreated diabetic ketoacidosis.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

It is positive their other children did not have untreated diabetic ketoacidosis.

You do not know that, there is no way you can know that. You are grasping at straws to defend your point. It's not working.

Tell me, can ketoacidosis be reversed without medical treatment? What level of ketoacidosis cannot be reversed without medical treatment? When do the symptoms of ketoacidosis go critical? How many of the symptoms are present up to the time that ketoacidosis cannot be reversed without medication or treatment?

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You do not know that, there is no way you can know that. You are grasping at straws to defend your point. It's not working.

Untreated diabetic ketoacidosis is fatal.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by pestilenceaf23

The only problem is...is that your Mom was an adult.....not a child who couldn't care for themselves.

That may be, but the commentary indicates that she could have been neglected by my dad or by me and my family when she was showing signs of ketoacidosis and we did not call an ambulance. In a diabetic coma you are unresponsive. Severe ketoacidosis causes a patient to be totally conscious or in a coma. In my clinical workups I had to assist Nurses and Practitioners jam a catheter through a man's stomach so they could drain his bladder. They did so because he was in a coma (one of the stages of ketoacidosis ).

The as the story stated they were with her when she went unconscious, so this was not a long term situation that they ignored, they were treating the girl with what they knew.