Chiefs How old was Rich Ganon before he was a franchise QB? - Page 17

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-12-2010, 08:24 PM

I keep reading how Cassel is 28 and he is in his sixth season and if he hasn't gotten it by now, he never will. Perhaps we should look at someone who had very similar numbers through his first six seasons.

Rich Gannon was drafted in 1987 by the Pats to be a defensive back. When he bristled at the idea, he was traded to Minnesota. In 1990, Gannon started 12 games. The Vikings had a 11-5 record, and the coaches went with Sean Salisbury. He played a lot over the years 1990-1992. He played in at least 12 games in each of those years, and never had more than 2278 yards. his passer rating was never more than 81.5. in 1990, he had 16 td's and 16 Int's. In 1991, he had 12 td's and 6 int's. in 1992, he had 12 Td's and 13 Int's. 1992 was his sixth season.

In 1993, he was picked up by the Redskins. He had three td's and seven interceptions. He played in only seven games. This was his seventh season.

His eighth season didn't come until 1995 because he was out of football in 1994. He had rotator cuff surgery in 1993, but no one was knocking down his door to get him under contract.

In 1995, Gannon worked out for the Chiefs and signed with the team as the BACKUP to Bono. He was a team player. A guy that would be the backup and not complain. A hard worker. The kind of player that coaches like.

He saw action in four games in 1996. He finally started to 'get it'. This was his 9th season. But, the Chiefs didn't have any faith in him and still went out and got Grbac. I believe Gannon signed a two year extension in 1996 because no one wanted him to be a starter.

Over the course of 1997 and 1998, he started a total of 16 games and played in a total of 21. His passer rating was about 80 over those two years. He threw for 3349 yards in those two seasons combined.

This was years 10 and 11.

The Raiders rewarded Gannon's mediocre numbers over his 11 seasons in the league with an opportunity to win the starting job.

We all know how it turned out.

This is a folk hero around these parts.... and yet, through his first 10 seasons, he was not an extremely accurate passer. He didn't throw downfield very well. He struggled to read defenses. And he was athletic.

Oh, AND he took a ton of sacks. He was sacked 302 times in 4206 pass attempts.

Heck, he wasn't even drafted to be a QB.

Through his first six seasons, Gannon had thrown 1003 passes. He had completed 561 passes. He completed 55.9% of his passes. He had 40 TD's and 36 Int's. He averaged 6.4 yards per attempt. He averaged 11.5 yards per completion. He had 81 sacks, or at about 8 percent of his pass attempts.

Through Cassel's first six seasons, he has thrown 1154 passes. He has completed 678 of them. He is completing 58.7% of his passes. He has 43 TD's. He has 32 Int's. He has averaged 6.5 yards per attempt. He has averaged 11.09 yards per completion. He has 96 sacks, which is about 8% of his pass attempts.

Will Cassel be Gannon? Probably not. But, Gannon wasn't Gannon until his 12th season in the league.... or twice as long as Cassel has been in the league...... That is when Gannon really got it and became a pro bowl QB.

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-13-2010, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sully

I don't want to do a point-by-point on my iPhone, but I'll start by saying When did I bring up Sanchez? And finish by saying, the rest of your points are lacking, as well.

Just a comparison that the board is familar with. Sanchez and Cassel have similar arm strength.

patteeu · 10-13-2010, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bane

It's useless arguing with you Cassel ballwashers.

The fact that I don't buy into the extreme view that Cassel has proven himself to be a bust beyond any reasonable doubt makes me a ballwasher? I think it just makes me skeptical but open minded instead of a drone who faithfully follows the prevailing views of a few forceful CP personalities like you and the other beta dogs who like to run with the pack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bane

He's saying what pioli want's him to.I'd bet he would pul Cassel in a heartbeat if we had a viable back up and Pioli wouldn't kill him.Cassel is Pioli's poster boy,not Haley's.

Well we can't really know one way or the other on this so your theory is as good as any I guess, and it has the added benefit of supporting the conclusion you want to reach. I'd love to see Haley put someone in who he believed was better than Cassel. I've never been a Cassel believer and I was skeptical of the trade from the beginning with the caveat that I was willing to defer to Pioli's superior knowledge. No doubt that's a Cassel ballwashing position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bane

He knows him better than Haley no matter what you Cassel ballwashers want to believe.Hell Haley didn't even know who the **** he was till we traded for him.That was all Pioli and you're blind if you think otherwise.

You think Rodney Harrison knows Cassel better than the guy who has been his head coach for the past two years and who spent all of last season as the guy's QB coach and offensive coordinator as well? Really? OK. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one because I don't think that makes a bit of sense.

patteeu · 10-13-2010, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Lane

I think Gannon's nickname was noodle arm when he was with the raiders. I think Gannon is Cassels upside which tells me he isn't good enough. Gannon isn't what we need. We need Manning or even a Trent Green.

Gannon isnt good enough to hold out hope for in 3-4 years, better to cut bait and move on.

If you think anyone in this thread is advocating for a 3-4 year wait, you've misread the thread.

King_Chief_Fan · 10-13-2010, 09:44 AM

dont know how old Gannon was..........but I am pretty certain that Cassel won't be able to live to see the day where he is a franchise QB

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-13-2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bane

He knows him better than Haley no matter what you Cassel ballwashers want to believe.Hell Haley didn't even know who the **** he was till we traded for him.That was all Pioli and you're blind if you think otherwise.

Let me be the first to say that Haley probably didn't know him directly when they traded for him.

Now, it is stupid to say that he didn't know who he was. He has started 15 games and put up good numbers.

At this point, however, Haley knows Cassel much better than Harrison.

Harrison is still basing his opinion of Cassel on Cassel two years ago.

Haley is in the film room with him. Haley is at every practice with him.

To say that Harrison knows him better than Haley is stupid.

But, then again, it is pointless to argue logic with casselbashers.

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-13-2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

If you think anyone in this thread is advocating for a 3-4 year wait, you've misread the thread.

What else is new?

See, the guys who have concluded that Cassel sucks sees anyone with a bit of an open mind as a ball washer.

Clearly, Pioli just doesn't want to admit his mistake. Clearly Haley and Weis don't trust him.

Clearly, this message board is fully of quality GM's and talent evaluators and the Chiefs front office is just slow to catch up.

And, anyone who posts anything that could possibly construed as opposed to this certainty.... is a cassel ball washer.

Sully · 10-13-2010, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

So, are we to bash him for the throw or not? Or is it whichever proves your point at the time?

Even if he does tell Cassel right where to go with the ball... he still trusts Cassel to deliver the throw.

And, if his arm strength and accuracy are as bad as you claim...then Haley is the dumbest coach on the planet.

I've been pretty consistent with this.
I put it more on Cassell than the coaching staff.
Cassell isn't good enough to make reads or the good throw, therefore, the coaching staff is handcuffed as to what they can call.
They call a play where they think the one option is going to spring open, and go with that.

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-13-2010, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sully

I've been pretty consistent with this.
I put it more on Cassell than the coaching staff.
Cassell isn't good enough to make reads or the good throw, therefore, the coaching staff is handcuffed as to what they can call.
They call a play where they think the one option is going to spring open, and go with that.

Funny how they put it in the hands of Cassel, since they know how poor he is. I mean, just kick the field goal.

Fourth and short. They have one of the better running games in the league. Just the play before they had the corner sealed when JC juggled the ball.

And, yet, he decides to throw it.

And, even that PROVES that they don't trust Cassel. I love this board's logic sometimes.

Sully · 10-13-2010, 09:52 AM

Remember that lady who got a face transplant in France a year or two ago?

Going into the operating room, the doctor could say with all honesty and confidence that looks-wise, her arrow was pointing up.
That said, I'm still not going up to her in a bar and asking if she likes eggs for breakfast.

Don't look now, but Cassell's face is missing.

SenselessChiefsFan · 10-13-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sully

Remember that lady who got a face transplant in France a year or two ago?

Going into the operating room, the doctor could say with all honesty and confidence that looks-wise, her arrow was pointing up.
That said, I'm still not going up to her in a bar and asking if she likes eggs for breakfast.

Don't look now, but Cassell's face is missing.

Sully · 10-13-2010, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

Funny how they put it in the hands of Cassel, since they know how poor he is. I mean, just kick the field goal.

Fourth and short. They have one of the better running games in the league. Just the play before they had the corner sealed when JC juggled the ball.

And, yet, he decides to throw it.

And, even that PROVES that they don't trust Cassel. I love this board's logic sometimes.

Yeah, because not trusting your QB means you throw all football logic and strategy out of the window, rather than just most of it.

And enough with "the board" bullshit that you and pat are trying to pull. If you disagree with me, then disagree with me.
Considering I was supportive of Cassell until just recently, and was actually making fun of milkman in the preseason for what turned out to be a pretty accurate, though unflattering, comment about Cassell's rank among NFL QBs, then the bullshit narratives of "high fives" or following popular opinion just simply doesn't wash.
I watch the ****ing games. I know what I'm looking for, and Cassell just isn't it, nor will he ever be.

Let's go back to the beginning.
What is it about Cassell that makes you think he could ever hold Gannon's jock?
Athleticism? (as compared to a guy who was drafted as a DB?)
Leadership? (other than a few player comments, have you ever seen evidence of this?)
Hard work? (nice attribute, but lack of talent still wins that battle 98% of the time)

What is it about him, other than his helmet, that deserves this comparison, rather than the more appropriate Scott Mitchell one?

patteeu · 10-13-2010, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sully

And enough with "the board" bullshit that you and pat are trying to pull. If you disagree with me, then disagree with me.

Since you gratuitously mentioned me, I guess I'll point out that I've been pretty good about disagreeing with you about the specific things that you post rather than attributing some general argument to you. Your first post in this thread was such a boneheaded non-argument that it could have only been intended to generate high fives from the like-minded pack of Cassel bashers because it didn't have any merit in the thoughtfulness department.

Brock · 10-13-2010, 10:15 AM

I remember these same arguments about Grbac. Some people just don't want to believe their eyes and instead have to convolute an argument because the truth sucks.

Sully · 10-13-2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

Since you gratuitously mentioned me, I guess I'll point out that I've been pretty good about disagreeing with you about the specific things that you post rather than attributing some general argument to you. Your first post in this thread was such a boneheaded non-argument that it could have only been intended to generate high fives from the like-minded pack of Cassel bashers because it didn't have any merit in the thoughtfulness department.

Yeah.
It was in no way an attempt to convey what a dumb comparison was being made with a little levity.
You got me.
I am only here for high fives. They feed my soul.

Dumbass.

Sully · 10-13-2010, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

I remember these same arguments about Grbac. Some people just don't want to believe their eyes and instead have to convolute an argument because the truth sucks.

Let me make a confession.
I was a Grbac over Gannon guy. But it was, to me, about the economics. Plus I was young.

High Five!!!!

10-12-2010, 08:24 PM
SenselessChiefsFan MVP Join Date: Nov 2008 Casino cash: $10005450	How old was Rich Ganon before he was a franchise QB? I keep reading how Cassel is 28 and he is in his sixth season and if he hasn't gotten it by now, he never will. Perhaps we should look at someone who had very similar numbers through his first six seasons. Rich Gannon was drafted in 1987 by the Pats to be a defensive back. When he bristled at the idea, he was traded to Minnesota. In 1990, Gannon started 12 games. The Vikings had a 11-5 record, and the coaches went with Sean Salisbury. He played a lot over the years 1990-1992. He played in at least 12 games in each of those years, and never had more than 2278 yards. his passer rating was never more than 81.5. in 1990, he had 16 td's and 16 Int's. In 1991, he had 12 td's and 6 int's. in 1992, he had 12 Td's and 13 Int's. 1992 was his sixth season. In 1993, he was picked up by the Redskins. He had three td's and seven interceptions. He played in only seven games. This was his seventh season. His eighth season didn't come until 1995 because he was out of football in 1994. He had rotator cuff surgery in 1993, but no one was knocking down his door to get him under contract. In 1995, Gannon worked out for the Chiefs and signed with the team as the BACKUP to Bono. He was a team player. A guy that would be the backup and not complain. A hard worker. The kind of player that coaches like. He saw action in four games in 1996. He finally started to 'get it'. This was his 9th season. But, the Chiefs didn't have any faith in him and still went out and got Grbac. I believe Gannon signed a two year extension in 1996 because no one wanted him to be a starter. Over the course of 1997 and 1998, he started a total of 16 games and played in a total of 21. His passer rating was about 80 over those two years. He threw for 3349 yards in those two seasons combined. This was years 10 and 11. The Raiders rewarded Gannon's mediocre numbers over his 11 seasons in the league with an opportunity to win the starting job. We all know how it turned out. This is a folk hero around these parts.... and yet, through his first 10 seasons, he was not an extremely accurate passer. He didn't throw downfield very well. He struggled to read defenses. And he was athletic. Oh, AND he took a ton of sacks. He was sacked 302 times in 4206 pass attempts. Heck, he wasn't even drafted to be a QB. Through his first six seasons, Gannon had thrown 1003 passes. He had completed 561 passes. He completed 55.9% of his passes. He had 40 TD's and 36 Int's. He averaged 6.4 yards per attempt. He averaged 11.5 yards per completion. He had 81 sacks, or at about 8 percent of his pass attempts. Through Cassel's first six seasons, he has thrown 1154 passes. He has completed 678 of them. He is completing 58.7% of his passes. He has 43 TD's. He has 32 Int's. He has averaged 6.5 yards per attempt. He has averaged 11.09 yards per completion. He has 96 sacks, which is about 8% of his pass attempts. Will Cassel be Gannon? Probably not. But, Gannon wasn't Gannon until his 12th season in the league.... or twice as long as Cassel has been in the league...... That is when Gannon really got it and became a pro bowl QB.
Posts: 5,540

10-13-2010, 09:44 AM	#244
King_Chief_Fan Praise Him Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: none ya Casino cash: $5845486	dont know how old Gannon was..........but I am pretty certain that Cassel won't be able to live to see the day where he is a franchise QB
Posts: 12,181

10-13-2010, 09:52 AM	#249
Sully It Goes On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Lees Summit Casino cash: $10026331	Remember that lady who got a face transplant in France a year or two ago? Going into the operating room, the doctor could say with all honesty and confidence that looks-wise, her arrow was pointing up. That said, I'm still not going up to her in a bar and asking if she likes eggs for breakfast. Don't look now, but Cassell's face is missing. __________________ "And I don't wish that girl any bad luck," he said, "but I hope she gets hit with a car." - Tommy Lasorda
Posts: 18,295

10-13-2010, 10:15 AM	#253
Brock Say hello to my little friend Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Larryville Casino cash: $9598422	I remember these same arguments about Grbac. Some people just don't want to believe their eyes and instead have to convolute an argument because the truth sucks.
Posts: 47,314