The Official "Lost" the series discussion

[Deberg_1990]

I figured I would start a thread for this and see what happens....there seemed to be quite a few viewers on the board for this show the past few weeks.....I like the direction the show is taking so far......episode 3 tonight at 7 central on ABC....

[Fish]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

About laughed my ass off when Ben asked if the rabbit had a number.

Could you explain that one please? I missed that storyline....

[Bowser]

I have not watched an episode of this show, ever. My work schedule was all screwy when it first started, and I missed the first season. This is before we had DVIR, and I haven't wanted to jump in in the middle of the storyline. I recently bought the first season on DVD, and I'm looking forward to watching it.

[SithCeNtZ]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

Could you explain that one please? I missed that storyline....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gERdALb5vQ

This explains it.

[KcMizzou]

Originally Posted by Bowser

I have not watched an episode of this show, ever. My work schedule was all screwy when it first started, and I missed the first season. This is before we had DVIR, and I haven't wanted to jump in in the middle of the storyline. I recently bought the first season on DVD, and I'm looking forward to watching it.

I'm kind of in the same boat. I enjoyed the first season... lost interest during the second. Now I hear it's good again, but I feel like I've missed too much.

Hell, I was "lost" when I was watching every episode.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Yep, they have learned their lesson about draggin chit out. Look at the way they handled the shrink gal. No 3-4 episode arc to try to figure out where she fits into the equation. But still enough mystery like WTH has she been hiding and observing? Via the darma cameras?

I'm not sure if she was really there, or if Ben was somehow projecting her, for lack of a better word. Ben and Walt both seem to have some weird mojo.

[DaKCMan AP]

I'd like to acknowledge the shout out to Gainesville, FL in the last episode of Lost

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Ben and Walt both seem to have some weird mojo.

Looks like Hurley might have the same mojo Walt had. Walt kept rolling perfect numbers when playing backgammon, now Hurley is throwing perfect horseshoes after seeing/hearing the shack.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Looks like Hurley might have the same mojo Walt had. Walt kept rolling perfect numbers when playing backgammon, now Hurley is throwing perfect horseshoes after seeing/hearing the shack.

Interesting observation.

[Megbert]

Pretty good podcast site:
http://www.jayandjack.com/

[cadmonkey]

Ok, I know I haven't posted in this Lost Forum all that much, I usually discuss it over at Patriotsplanet. There is a poster over there that has some pretty in depth thoughts about the physics of the island. Some of my next few posts will be lengthy, but they are very informative.

[cadmonkey]

Faraday's Journal:

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Minkowski's Spacetime Triangle:

[cadmonkey]

here is part of our conversation:

Originally Posted by O_P_T

Something occurred to me today.

Remember the Ben flashback episode where we see him as a teenager meeting one of the "others" (Richard something).

Richard appeared to be the same age in the flashback as he is in the other episodes we've seen him in.

Now we know why.

He hasn't aged all that much from when he saw the teenage Ben, due to the effect the island has on time.

Originally Posted by cadmonkey

Then why did Ben age?

Originally Posted by O_P_T

There are multiple possibilities.

The first would be that Ben had spent some time off the island. Recall the photo the people from the boat had of him, based on the computer monitor and clothes he was wearing, that looked like sometime in the late 70's early 80's time frame.

I also think that shot was not taken on the island, but someplace else.

We know Richard was off the island because he recruited Juliette.

Now a far more interesting possibility occurred to me last night when Juliette heard the whispers just before the shrink appeared.

Go back and look at the Minkowski space time triangle I posted a few pages back.

If you move the appropriate direction on that diagram, you will not be "seen" by people in "normal" space and your flow of time may be different as well.

That's where the "others" we haven't seen have gone. They shifted in a direction that makes them separated from "normal" space.

We hear them as the whispers. It was also where the shrink "came from". Juliette didn't see or hear her approaching because she "came" from someplace else inside that triangle.

It also explains why the Asian guy was recruited for the boat. You can think of his ability to "talk" to ghosts as being able to talk to people and things that are shifted in that same direction in the triangle that the "others" moved.

[cadmonkey]

.

Originally Posted by cadmonkey

I tryed looking at that triangle after reading OPT's post. My eyes started bleeding.

Originally Posted by O_P_T

Hey, I got my degree in physics so I've thought about that stuff before.

The part of Special Relativity that describes why moving clocks "run slow" and why the length of something changes, is really pretty easy to understand.

It is all based on two assumptions.

1) Everyone measures the exact same speed of light, regardless of what speed they are traveling.

2) There is no such thing as an absolute reference frame. That is motion can only be described relative to another object.

The second assumption is best demonstrated by what you see if you look out the window of a train when it starts to move. Have you ever had the impression that the station is moving and you are standing still? That's the idea of the second assumption. you can describe things as the train moving relative to the non-moving station or the moving station relative to the non-moving train. Either perspective is valid and indistinguishable from the other.

We can perform a simple experiment to show what happens if we apply these two assumptions.

Suppose Person A is on a train traveling at 90% of the speed of light.

He holds a flashlight and points it on a target that detects the light from the flashlight. When he turns on the flashlight that starts a clock and when the light hits the target, it stops the clock.

The target is 10 feet from the flashlight.

Person B is standing next to the train tracks. He has a similar clock system that starts and stops when the light is turned on and when it hits the target.

Person A turns on the light when he is right next to B.

What does A see?

The light travels 10 feet and hits the target.

How long did it take? 10 feet divided by the speed of light.

What did B see?

The light travels 10 feet, plus the distance the train traveled during the experiment, call that N

How long did he think it took?

(10 feet + N) divided by the speed of light.

According to assumption 1, A and B have to use the same value for the speed of light.

So from B's point of view, it took longer for the light to hit the target than it did from A's point of view.

If the speed of light has to be the same, there is only one other possibility, that the distance from the flashlight to the target was less than 10 feet. In other words, the distance between the target and the flashlight had to shrink by the same amount the train moved from when the light was turned on and it hit the target.

If A and B measure the same speed of light, either of those two options must be the case, or some combination of the two.

The equations that describe how time changes between A and B, or distance, are called the Lorentz Transformations.

If you were to graph the experiment involving A and B, you'd end up with a right triangle.

Draw a vertical line from B to A when the flashlight is turned on (call this length x)

Draw a line from this point parallel to the tracks to the point where the light hits the target (call this length y).

The two lines for the 90 degree side of the triangle.

The hypotenuse connects the target location when the light hits it back to B Call that length z).

Since this is a right triangle, pythagorean theorem let's us calculate the length of the three sides, x^2 + y^2 = z^2.

z= Square root(x^2 + y^2)

If you look at the Lorentz Transformation, you'll notice the "square root (1-v^2/c^2)" looks an awful lot like solving for z in the Pythagorean theorem.

It's because of the right triangle I described above.

So basically all of the "weird" parts of time and distance changing when moving near the speed of light is due to the simple fact that Einstein assumed that the speed of light is the same, regardless of what speed you're traveling at.

If you agree with that assumption, then the changes described by the Lorentz transformation must happen. There simply isn't any other logically possible outcome.

Now what that "means", is a whole other question and most certainly will make your brain hurt.

When Einstein developed General Relativity, he expanded the ways these transformations can occur to include strong energy fields.

So the island doesn't have to be moving near the speed of light to make these relativistic effects take place, but simply have a large energy source/ field.

The big magnetic field associated with the hatch and entering the numbers is probably associated with this.

Hmmmmm..... I'm going to have to reexamine the numbers and see if there is any linkage to any thing related to Relativity.

[cadmonkey]

The Valenzetti Equation is a mathematical formula designed to predict
the end of the world. Through research of this equation, the end of the
world was found to be 4:23:42 pm on April 8th, 2015. This is the
significance of the series of numbers: 4:8:15:16:23:42.

It was once stated that "the Dharma Initiative set out to find a way to
change the Valenzetti Equation." Their strategy for avoiding the end of
the world was to create a time machine to prevent the world from ever
reaching the year 2015, at least in an isolated location where some
pocket of humanity could thrive. Perhaps this location could at first be
used as an experiment for proof of concept and then perhaps if the
process is perfected, the entire Earth can be saved. The island was
chosen as this location for one of two reasons: either it was just
remote enough that it would be easy to protect it from external
disturbance that could disrupt the research, or the island had some
intrinsic properties that made it special. I lean towards the former,
but I could be swayed either way.

A key piece of the functionality of the time machine was the
installation of a gigantic magnet underground beneath the island. This
obviously causes the unusual electromagnetic abnormalities experienced
there. At some point, probably in the 1980's (let's say 1988 for the
sake of argument), the time machine was completed. From this point on,
the Island exists in a sort of space-time bubble which is separated from
the timeline of the rest of the universe. The Swan station is used to
reset the machine periodically to always keep the time machine locked at
the original start date in 1988. So as long as the Swan is functioning,
the island will remain locked in 1988 while the rest of the
world/universe proceeds through time normally.

When Desmond/Kelvin discussed how the resetting of the Hatch computer
was "saving the world" - this is quite literally true. Keeping the
island in
1988 allows them to avoid ever reaching 2015 when humanity is doomed. I
believe that after the Hatch was imploded, time on the island would
begin moving forward in time with the rest of universe. It would still
be locked approximately 19 or 20 years in the past compared to the rest
of reality, but it would move forward nonetheless.

Now, a very important concept in this theory is the fact that entering
the bubble of the time machine will basically create two separate
threads of reality for anyone/anything that enters. So, for example,
when the plane crashes onto the island it passes through the boundaries
of the time bubble. One "copy" of the plane remains outside in reality
where it crashes to the bottom of the ocean and everyone dies in the
2004. The other "copy"
enters the island in the year 1988 where many people survive.

Around the perimeter of the island, I believe there is only one way to
leave the time bubble. Michael and Walt were given this exact bearing so
that they could leave. Whenever anyone else tried to leave on the
sailboat, they were unsuccessful because they didn't know where to
leave.

Here is a brief list of some strange anomalies that I think can be
explained with this theory:

1) Lock and Rose were healed when they arrived on the island. This is
because the only "copy" of them now exists in 1988 when both of them
were perfectly healthy.

2) When Naomi crashed on the island she had a phone/communication device
that Sayid mentioned was slightly more advanced than anything he had
seen.
This is because Sayid crashed in 2004. Though he'd only spent what
seemed like 90 days on the island, it was probably 2007 or so in reality
when Naomi crashed onto the island.

3) Women cannot conceive on the island but they can give birth to babies
conceived before they arrived. This is because a child conceived on the
island is conceived in the year 1988. This child does not exist in the
true reality. The termination of the pregnancy is part of the universe's
course correction (we will address course correction in detail shortly).

4) Desmond's premonitions. Desmond is different from the other people in
the Lost crew. He did not crash on a plane and theoretically never died
in reality. So when he arrives at the island, there now exist TWO living
copies of Desmond in separate threads of reality. One remains in 1988
while the other moves forward through time. This would explain perfectly
why he can see into the future.

5) Walt appears to have aged more than everyone else when he returns to
the island after having left it. It's possible that Walt and Michael
leave for a number of years before returning to the island. Very little
time has passed on the island compared to how much time they spent in
the real world during their time away. This plays into a statement from
Lost co-creator Damon Lindelof: "We've always known Malcolm was going to
grow faster than we could shoot the show. And we planned for it. Trust
us. Please trust us."
If Walt's age abnormality was always planned, that should indicate that
some sort of time plot was planned from the start.

6) The Other known as Richard doesn't appear to age. He is also known to
have left island at some point(s). I'm not sure exactly how this would
tie in, but it could be a clue to his state.

7) The Others seem to be able to gather incredibly detailed information
about the survivors in an extremely short period of time. Since it's
1988 on the island and it's the future outside the island, if the Others
can use DHARMA's equipment to access contacts on the other side, they
can get answers from the future.

8) Christian Shephard. His body was on the plane that crashed. Perhaps
his body going back in time brought him back to life on the island
(similar to the healings of Locke/Rose). This could account for his
empty coffin, the fact that he's been seen on the island (which, of
course, could also just be another hallucination), and the fact that
Jack refers to him in the flashforward as being alive. The crash
would've created 2 copies of his body - one in the 2004 reality plane
(dead) and a resurrected 1988 one on the island. This is a different
scenario from survivors of the crash who die on the island, ending the
life of the only remaining copy of themselves. Additionally, Christian
was seen in one of the online videos instructing Vincent to wake Jack.
This seems impossible to be a hallucination (unless the dog was
hallucinating?) and the fact that Christian goes off alone rather than
joining the other survivors indicates to me that he has some
pre-existing knowledge or ties to the island. After I wrote this, I
watched last night's new episode and seeing Christian in the cabin has
reinforced this a bit!

9) Locke began to lose feeling in his legs when he was near the '?' area
on the map. It's entirely possible that this was just a ruse by Locke to
somehow manipulate Boone, but I think it's somewhat likely that the '?'
area, being located in the center of the island's time machine, is the
location of the portal that connects the two threads of reality. Locke's
proximity to this area could have been what caused him to begin
reverting back to his paralyzed state.

I can't directly explain all of the tremendous coincidences that occur
between characters (Hurley's lotto with the numbers, Yemi's plane
crashing on the island, the "real" Sawyer being Locke's dad thing, etc.
etc.) but I feel very confident that all of those things have to do with
the concept of "course correction" by the universe. As Desmond explained
in relation to Charlie's death - you can only postpone it, but the
universe will eventually catch up and correct itself. I think that this,
on a broader scale, it's what's happening on the show as the universe
tries to get back on course and correct itself to appropriately end
humanity at the scheduled date and undo the attempts to prevent our
demise with a time machine.

The universe orchestrates what seems to be an absurdly complex string of
coincidences and interconnectedness between characters in order to
create the right set of variables for that plane to crash on the island
and those people to inadvertently destroy the time machine and put the
world back on its course for destruction.

This concept of "course correction" as a plot device is, in my opinion,
a brilliant tool for the writers of the show. It allows them to weave an
intricate network of plot elements that seem ridiculously impossible and
complex, but all those otherwise unexplainable loose ends can be tied
together in the form of universal course correction.

I suspect that course correction may come into play more in the future
of the show where we will see many or all of the characters who were
"supposed to die" in the plane crash facing inevitable and inescapable
death as the universe is catching up to them. This, obviously, is just a
wild guess for the future of the show.

A little side note that ties into this theory: I believe the Polar Bears
on the island are a reference to the concept of being in danger of
extinction.
Humans are using the island as their means to try to fend off extinction
and the polar bear is an iconic animal when it comes to endangerment.
The choice of these animals as a research species on the island could
simply be a piece of symbolism by the Lost writers.

[Baby Lee]

While it's conceivable that two objects could in a relativistic sense appear to moving apart at greater than the speed of light [ie, from your frame of reference one is moving away <--- at .8 the speed of light, and another moving away --> at .8 the speed of light] it would have no causal consequence as information cannot surpass the speed of light and thus those two bodies will never exchange information.