Royals Ozzie admits to ordering past retaliation - Page 2

Nightfyre · 08-03-2008, 09:25 PM

Ozzie admits to ordering past retaliation

By Jeff Passan, Yahoo! Sports 1 hour, 47 minutes ago

Yahoo! Sports

KANSAS CITY, Mo. – Ozzie Guillen earned himself an almost certain suspension Sunday afternoon. He told a dirty little secret.

“I’ve hit people before on purpose,” said Guillen, the Chicago White Sox manager, after a game Sunday in which umpires levied a suspect ejection in the fifth inning of a blowout when Chicago reliever D.J. Carrasco hit Kansas City’s Miguel Olivo with the bases loaded and incited a bench-emptying square dance.

“Yes I have,” Guillen continued. “Because that’s my job. Protect my players.”

Managers know better than to admit publicly one of baseball’s most unsavory truths, that a select number of hit-by-pitches registered each year come laced with intent. The purpose pitch – or the purpose hit, in these instances – is simply a part of baseball, and whether it’s to keep a batter from getting too comfortable or avenge some kind of perceived misdeed, it will never go away, no matter how much Major League Baseball tries to police its game.

Baseball sees this as the type of thing reserved for hockey, or Ron Artest, which is why it likely will drop the hammer on Guillen sometime this week. And yet as he continued his rant following the White Sox’s 14-3 loss that dropped them out of first place in the American League Central for the first time since May 16, a kernel of truth revealed itself. This wasn’t a typical Ozzie blowup, full of misguided fire and silly brimstone, a mouth shooting out Silly String. He made mountains of sense, and his point is something that baseball ought to consider instead of condemn.

“Sometimes people have to have a little bit of common sense,” Guillen said. “I’m talking about the umpires, I’m not talking about Olivo.”

Well, Olivo needs it, too. He charged the mound after getting hit in the hand with the bases loaded in a blowout game by a pitcher whose fastball doesn’t touch 90 mph on a fast gun.

All of which relates back to Sunday’s home-plate umpire Tim Timmons and crew chief Gary Cederstrom. Dusting a batter is not black and white. However basic and brute the act, it takes a fair amount of consideration.

Who do you hit? Where do you hit him? Why do you hit him? When do you hit him?

“You think I’m going to bring somebody in to hit somebody and they’re going to throw a fastball 82 (mph) at the hands?” Guillen said. “I’m going to bring in my best guy and make sure he gets it done. That’s Major League Baseball. That’s baseball. That’s the baseball I grew up with. Not the (expletive) they play right now.”

By his best guy, Guillen said he meant Octavio Dotel or Matt Thornton, both of whom throw 95 mph. Carrasco is a sinkerball pitcher, and with one out and a slow-running free swinger at the plate, he threw three consecutive pitches inside trying to induce a double-play ball. Even Ozzie isn’t twisted enough to call for a retaliation pitch with the bases loaded just so he can cloak it with a good excuse.

Context counts.

An umpires’ biggest weakness – and this goes from the best (Tim McClelland) to the worst (C.B. Bucknor) – is delineating between pitching inside and throwing at a hitter.

Don’t cast this as an indictment on the whole lot. By and large, umpires are very good at their jobs. They get the vast majority of calls correct, employ consistent strike zones and remain strong in big moments. While failure is minimal, the scrutiny that results is exponentially worse.

Still, the tack baseball takes toward hit batsmen often inflames situations rather than extinguish them. Cederstrom explained that Carrasco’s three pitches were “up and in.” The pitch that hit Olivo nicked him on the wrist, which might be in but wasn’t up enough to arouse any suspicion.

“If he would’ve hit me with the first pitch, I would’ve been happy to take first base,” Olivo admitted. “But three times inside? It’s just so obvious.”

Actually, it wasn’t obvious at all, though emotions and memories and feelings tend to scuttle the truth in these situations. Guillen said Royals pitchers hit the White Sox six or seven times in a series in late July. It was five. And Olivo said Chicago had hit him three times this season. Carrasco’s was the second.

Guillen later said that on July 20, he instructed Carrasco to hit Royals designated hitter Billy Butler as retaliation for a Horacio Ramirez pitch that sidelined Jermaine Dye.

Carrasco missed. So much for Ozzie calling on his big guns.

If there was a time Sunday for a hit-by-pitch, Guillen said, it came earlier in the fifth inning. With Kansas City ahead 6-0, Mark Teahen led off the inning by trying to reach via a bunt.

“When Teahen bunts up by six runs, I didn’t even hit him. I should’ve,” Guillen said. “To teach him a lesson how to play baseball. And I didn’t. That’s why I want Major League Baseball to look at this thing the right way. … Everybody knows in the dugout Teahen did the wrong thing.”

Guillen didn’t stop there, and by the end, he had spent eight minutes bloviating on right and wrong. Whether he’s the correct emissary for such a conversation is dubious. In 2006, Guillen sent rookie reliever Sean Tracey into a game specifically to plunk Hank Blalock. Tracey missed. Guillen went bonkers. Tracey cried. Guillen shipped him to the minors the next day.

He hasn’t been back.

Credibility problems aside, Guillen’s honesty – or, perhaps better, forthrightness – does buy him some capital. He is right: Richie Garcia, the umpire supervisor at Kauffman Stadium, should be embarrassed. Had Olivo not charged the mound, Carrasco probably would not have been ejected. The umpires reacted poorly in concert with Olivo’s doing so.

The fact is, fights in baseball happen. Umpires may cut down on them by thumbing pitchers who throw inside, but the game, too, suffers. Players tend to police themselves. Unless they start throwing at each other’s heads – and with so much money at stake, that simply doesn’t happen anymore – umpires should be instructed to back off.

Fat chance. Status quo reigns. Guillen will get suspended. Same with Olivo, Carrasco and Royals starter Zack Greinke, who plunked Nick Swisher in the hip with a retaliation pitch (which, naturally, he denied). We’ll see more subterfuge and refutations and nastiness, because, as Guillen said, “I signed a five-year deal with this organization, and we play Kansas City a lot.”

And the dirty little secret is out.

**** 'em. Plunk off the get go in our next series.

**alanm** · 08-03-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach

Shit, I'd go as far as having someone planting right at Ozzie himself.

I bet that would shake the dugout up a little.
Have the Royals pitcher throw right at Ozzie first pitch. Bet they would swarm the field like hornets.

KCUnited · 08-03-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markk

i wonder if zack retaliated on orders or on his own. that pitch he threw was not something that slipped or whatever. it was a straight fastball right at the guy's hip.

guillen is stupid, anyway. they have a lot to lose right now for getting into a pissing match with a last place team. people can get hurt or suspended or whatever. what happens if he loses a key player over this? what a moron.

Last time Zack faced Swisher he went 1 for 3 with a bb and 2 so. I personally think Zack was done, knew he'd get tossed, and beaned the guy.

Second, we are not a last place team.

**alanm** · 08-03-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach

Well, the bunting issue is soley on Hillman. Hillman, for whatever reason, loves to bunt more than he normally should allow.

He's still trying to manage like he's still in Japan. His ballclub last year couldn't hit worth a shit either. Last 2 games excluded. It's all he knows what to do with a weak hitting ball team. You bunt a lot and play small ball.

irishjayhawk · 08-03-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip Towne

Anyone who saw Tony Conigliaro's face after being hit would never condone the intentional bean ball. You could see the impression of the balls stitches in his badly swollen face. Anybody got a pic of that?

I can attest to that. I got hit and fractured my sinus bone. The laces were clearly visible.

leviw · 08-03-2008, 10:12 PM

The Olivo grudge goes back to June 4 when Dotel hit Olivo and Olivo slammed the bat down and almost hit Pierzynski. I thought it was pretty obvious the order was given to Carrasco from Guillen to hit Olivo today. From the first two pitches, it looked like Carrasco was hesitant to hit him.

Then when he finally did get hit, I think Olivo knew where the order came from and headed to the mound with no intention of taking on Carrasco -- that was a weak mound charge -- but wasn't quick enough to pull a Brian McRae and take after the manager in the dugout.

I think Zack was doing what any ace should and standing up for his team, taking the ejection and moving on. I'd think he'd be a scrappy one if it came to blows.

KCUnited · 08-03-2008, 10:16 PM

I always thought it'd be cool to see a pick off move to 1st and intentional bean the opposing teams 1st base coach. Just to draw the line.

**Nzoner** · 08-03-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCUnited

Second, we are not a last place team.

word

SPchief · 08-03-2008, 10:47 PM

According to John Kruk on baseball tonight, the Royals are a last place team.

SPATCH · 08-03-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPchief

According to John Kruk on baseball tonight, the Royals are a last place team.

john kruk is highly regarded for his extensive baseball knowledge and overall wisdom

uuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....... nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooottttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

**Bowser** · 08-03-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPchief

According to John Kruk on baseball tonight, the Royals are a last place team.

According to Stuart Scott on Sportscenter, Olivo had four hits for the Royals at the plate, and got his fifth hit when he cracked Pierzdouche in the head.

Sure-Oz · 08-03-2008, 11:00 PM

It was intentional, guillens a dirty little bitch of a manager anyway...

I don't remember him being a player like that though, he sure does have a big mouth...

Teahen should know better huh?! I think the nice guy gloves should be off for the Royals, **** the sox, they should be worried about the Twins getting into 1st place...and probably staying there!

Sure-Oz · 08-03-2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowser

According to Stuart Scott on Sportscenter, Olivo had four hits for the Royals at the plate, and got his fifth hit when he cracked Pierzdouche in the head.

Saw that, i was like wtf??? They really butchered that highlight...I assume they were trying to mean Aviles or had no ****ing clue period...

**Bowser** · 08-03-2008, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sure-Oz

Saw that, i was like wtf??? They really butchered that highlight...I assume they were trying to mean Aviles or had no ****ing clue period...

I'll guess the latter.

Sure-Oz · 08-03-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk13

I really don't care. A lot of armchair QB'ing by people who did not watch the game. Dude comes into a the 2nd blowout in a row, and throws three straight pitches at a guy's head. I don't blame Olivo at all.

Heck, Hawk and DJ are the biggest homers on the planet, and they said they didn't blame Olivo either.

I wish Olivo gave them what was coming to them...

I wish Zack beaned someone else besides Swisher, who seems like a good guy. Should've saved it for AJ but hey screw the SOX

**DaneMcCloud** · 08-03-2008, 11:06 PM

Finally!

I hope he finds the true killer of Randy Rhoads.

08-03-2008, 09:25 PM
Nightfyre MVP Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Helena, MT Casino cash: $3328849	Ozzie admits to ordering past retaliation Ozzie admits to ordering past retaliation By Jeff Passan, Yahoo! Sports 1 hour, 47 minutes ago Yahoo! Sports KANSAS CITY, Mo. – Ozzie Guillen earned himself an almost certain suspension Sunday afternoon. He told a dirty little secret. “I’ve hit people before on purpose,” said Guillen, the Chicago White Sox manager, after a game Sunday in which umpires levied a suspect ejection in the fifth inning of a blowout when Chicago reliever D.J. Carrasco hit Kansas City’s Miguel Olivo with the bases loaded and incited a bench-emptying square dance. “Yes I have,” Guillen continued. “Because that’s my job. Protect my players.” Managers know better than to admit publicly one of baseball’s most unsavory truths, that a select number of hit-by-pitches registered each year come laced with intent. The purpose pitch – or the purpose hit, in these instances – is simply a part of baseball, and whether it’s to keep a batter from getting too comfortable or avenge some kind of perceived misdeed, it will never go away, no matter how much Major League Baseball tries to police its game. Baseball sees this as the type of thing reserved for hockey, or Ron Artest, which is why it likely will drop the hammer on Guillen sometime this week. And yet as he continued his rant following the White Sox’s 14-3 loss that dropped them out of first place in the American League Central for the first time since May 16, a kernel of truth revealed itself. This wasn’t a typical Ozzie blowup, full of misguided fire and silly brimstone, a mouth shooting out Silly String. He made mountains of sense, and his point is something that baseball ought to consider instead of condemn. “Sometimes people have to have a little bit of common sense,” Guillen said. “I’m talking about the umpires, I’m not talking about Olivo.” Well, Olivo needs it, too. He charged the mound after getting hit in the hand with the bases loaded in a blowout game by a pitcher whose fastball doesn’t touch 90 mph on a fast gun. All of which relates back to Sunday’s home-plate umpire Tim Timmons and crew chief Gary Cederstrom. Dusting a batter is not black and white. However basic and brute the act, it takes a fair amount of consideration. Who do you hit? Where do you hit him? Why do you hit him? When do you hit him? “You think I’m going to bring somebody in to hit somebody and they’re going to throw a fastball 82 (mph) at the hands?” Guillen said. “I’m going to bring in my best guy and make sure he gets it done. That’s Major League Baseball. That’s baseball. That’s the baseball I grew up with. Not the (expletive) they play right now.” By his best guy, Guillen said he meant Octavio Dotel or Matt Thornton, both of whom throw 95 mph. Carrasco is a sinkerball pitcher, and with one out and a slow-running free swinger at the plate, he threw three consecutive pitches inside trying to induce a double-play ball. Even Ozzie isn’t twisted enough to call for a retaliation pitch with the bases loaded just so he can cloak it with a good excuse. Context counts. An umpires’ biggest weakness – and this goes from the best (Tim McClelland) to the worst (C.B. Bucknor) – is delineating between pitching inside and throwing at a hitter. Don’t cast this as an indictment on the whole lot. By and large, umpires are very good at their jobs. They get the vast majority of calls correct, employ consistent strike zones and remain strong in big moments. While failure is minimal, the scrutiny that results is exponentially worse. Still, the tack baseball takes toward hit batsmen often inflames situations rather than extinguish them. Cederstrom explained that Carrasco’s three pitches were “up and in.” The pitch that hit Olivo nicked him on the wrist, which might be in but wasn’t up enough to arouse any suspicion. “If he would’ve hit me with the first pitch, I would’ve been happy to take first base,” Olivo admitted. “But three times inside? It’s just so obvious.” Actually, it wasn’t obvious at all, though emotions and memories and feelings tend to scuttle the truth in these situations. Guillen said Royals pitchers hit the White Sox six or seven times in a series in late July. It was five. And Olivo said Chicago had hit him three times this season. Carrasco’s was the second. Guillen later said that on July 20, he instructed Carrasco to hit Royals designated hitter Billy Butler as retaliation for a Horacio Ramirez pitch that sidelined Jermaine Dye. Carrasco missed. So much for Ozzie calling on his big guns. If there was a time Sunday for a hit-by-pitch, Guillen said, it came earlier in the fifth inning. With Kansas City ahead 6-0, Mark Teahen led off the inning by trying to reach via a bunt. “When Teahen bunts up by six runs, I didn’t even hit him. I should’ve,” Guillen said. “To teach him a lesson how to play baseball. And I didn’t. That’s why I want Major League Baseball to look at this thing the right way. … Everybody knows in the dugout Teahen did the wrong thing.” Guillen didn’t stop there, and by the end, he had spent eight minutes bloviating on right and wrong. Whether he’s the correct emissary for such a conversation is dubious. In 2006, Guillen sent rookie reliever Sean Tracey into a game specifically to plunk Hank Blalock. Tracey missed. Guillen went bonkers. Tracey cried. Guillen shipped him to the minors the next day. He hasn’t been back. Credibility problems aside, Guillen’s honesty – or, perhaps better, forthrightness – does buy him some capital. He is right: Richie Garcia, the umpire supervisor at Kauffman Stadium, should be embarrassed. Had Olivo not charged the mound, Carrasco probably would not have been ejected. The umpires reacted poorly in concert with Olivo’s doing so. The fact is, fights in baseball happen. Umpires may cut down on them by thumbing pitchers who throw inside, but the game, too, suffers. Players tend to police themselves. Unless they start throwing at each other’s heads – and with so much money at stake, that simply doesn’t happen anymore – umpires should be instructed to back off. Fat chance. Status quo reigns. Guillen will get suspended. Same with Olivo, Carrasco and Royals starter Zack Greinke, who plunked Nick Swisher in the hip with a retaliation pitch (which, naturally, he denied). We’ll see more subterfuge and refutations and nastiness, because, as Guillen said, “I signed a five-year deal with this organization, and we play Kansas City a lot.” And the dirty little secret is out. **** 'em. Plunk off the get go in our next series.
Posts: 18,570

08-03-2008, 10:12 PM	#20
leviw Veteran Join Date: Mar 2005 Casino cash: $10004900	The Olivo grudge goes back to June 4 when Dotel hit Olivo and Olivo slammed the bat down and almost hit Pierzynski. I thought it was pretty obvious the order was given to Carrasco from Guillen to hit Olivo today. From the first two pitches, it looked like Carrasco was hesitant to hit him. Then when he finally did get hit, I think Olivo knew where the order came from and headed to the mound with no intention of taking on Carrasco -- that was a weak mound charge -- but wasn't quick enough to pull a Brian McRae and take after the manager in the dugout. I think Zack was doing what any ace should and standing up for his team, taking the ejection and moving on. I'd think he'd be a scrappy one if it came to blows.
Posts: 3,995

08-03-2008, 10:16 PM	#21
KCUnited Cheat Death Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Land of Drincoln Casino cash: $1868244	I always thought it'd be cool to see a pick off move to 1st and intentional bean the opposing teams 1st base coach. Just to draw the line.
Posts: 34,155

08-03-2008, 10:47 PM	#23
SPchief In Search of a Life Join Date: Feb 2004 Casino cash: $1512905	According to John Kruk on baseball tonight, the Royals are a last place team. __________________ http://give.somo.org/site/TR/Plunge/...nal&fr_id=1244 ^^^^^^^^^^ Click here to help with a special cause. Please help me out
Posts: 36,007

08-03-2008, 11:06 PM	#30
DaneMcCloud Supporter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hollywood, CA Casino cash: $10053648	Finally! I hope he finds the true killer of Randy Rhoads.
Posts: 88,960