Chiefs Gretz On Cassel: Surviving The Process - Page 2

AirForceChief · 09-11-2010, 10:51 AM

Well written, even handed article from Bob Gretz:

There’s one thing that Matt Cassel knows, and if he doesn’t then somebody should give him the information.

Len Dawson was booed by Chiefs fans. Terry Bradshaw was booed by Steelers fans. John Elway was booed by Broncos fans. Insert name of Hall of Fame quarterback and he was booed by fans of the insert name team he played for during his career.

There were some Chiefs fans back in the day that believed Dawson didn’t take enough chances with his passes, that he threw short dinks and dunks and that he did not go down the field as much as he could have, especially since he was calling the plays. His career completion percentage of 57.1 percent, his career average of 7.7 yards per attempt and his 237 TD passes to 178 interceptions look like pretty good numbers now.

But in the day, some Chiefs followers were unhappy and they let Dawson know it, firing verbal assaults from the stands at both Municipal and Arrowhead Stadiums.

That’s a simple fact of life for an NFL starting quarterback. The scene gets played out over and over around the league. Guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have escaped it so far, but their careers are not over yet. They still have plenty of opportunities to throw interceptions or badly timed incompletions that will raise the vocal hackles of their fan base.

Cassel reiterated the other day that he does not read papers, watch TV sports or listen to sports talk radio. I’m sure he doesn’t spend any time on Internet sites or web forums.

“I just try to block it out,” Cassel said this week. “That is something that goes along with this job. You are always going to be tested and there is always going to be scrutiny and there is always going to be somebody saying, ‘hey, he is not good enough. He can’t do this, he can’t do that.’

“I have a job to do and right now my job is to be the quarterback of this team. I am going to go out and work hard and do everything I need to do to be productive on the field.”

If one were to take the denunciations of Cassel that have poured forth through all those media portals that he does not pay attention to, then one could make the assumption Cassel and his position as the team’s starting quarterback engenders no confidence in the Chiefs and the team’s future.

But caution should prevail in making that leap. Some unimpressed media types and a few callers to sports talk radio or posters to Internet sites do not constitute a majority of Chiefs fans. Not everyone has written him off after 15 starts for the team. While it might be more accurate to say he has not been embraced by the Chiefs Nation as a whole, it’s a stretch to paint him as the latest failure among franchise quarterbacks.

Chiefs fans for decades now have screamed and complained about the team not drafting and developing their own quarterback. Based on some of the reaction to Cassel, it’s obvious those who bled red and gold would have no more patience with a young guy than an inexperienced quarterback who came from another team. They would chew him up and spit him out in a matter of years.

And that’s the pisser in this whole thing. No position on the field requires more patience in developing a contributing player than quarterback. In fact all the other positions combined may not require the patience needed to find that franchise quarterback. Yet, it’s the position where the media, fans and even the teams struggle to deal with growth and development. It takes time to become a good quarterback, but impatience generally stops the clock dead in its tracks.

The other day Todd Haley said that as far as he’s concerned no spot on the roster is ranks ahead of another. “The inside backer in the base defense is no more important than a gunner on the punt team,” Haley said. “The more our guys think that way, the better for us.”

It’s all well and good if that kind of thinking can be created within a locker room. But everybody in that room knows, as does the head coach and his staff, the GM and his staff and the ownership family, that there is one player that IS more important, and that’s the starting quarterback.

Whether he’s a so-called franchise QB, a care-taker, a game-manager, a rookie thrown to the wolves or a grizzled veteran playing out his final NFL days, the starting quarterback is the most important player on any pro football team. No other player has a greater effect on winning or losing than the guy taking the snaps.

Consider this for a moment – Todd Haley was willing to jettison his offensive coordinator last year just 10 days before the start of the regular season because he knew the situation wasn’t going to work with Chan Gailey. Do you think if Haley thought for a minute that Cassel wasn’t up to the task, that the only quarterback the Chiefs added in the off-season would have been Tyler Palko?

Asked for areas where he’s seen improvement from his starting quarterback and Haley gets pretty vague. But Friday he identified an area that while simple, is one of the most important elements for the success of a starting quarterback.

“When he comes off the field, what he says he saw generally ends up being what it was,” Haley said. “I think that’s a real good quality to have. Even subtle things within a game, you’ll say to him why did you do this, and he’ll say this linebacker did this, the receiver stumbled, or that receiver was short, the safety did this.

“Generally it’s pretty spot on what he sees. He sees the whole field. That was something that Kurt (Warner) was phenomenal at. A quarterback has to have great vision. Matt sees what’s happening.”

Today’s game is built around the quarterbacks, and the teams that have great ones do everything they can to keep them and provide them with weapons. Those that don’t have the top-line quarterbacks are constantly searching for a player who can play the position well enough that he’s not an impediment to winning.

These are all facts of football life. Head coaches and the quarterbacks themselves know it better than anybody, but they seldom will address or recognize that point in public. The pressure is tough enough without adding more fuel to the fire with your own hose.

That’s why if you’ve listened to any of Cassel’s press conferences over the last two seasons you know that they were filled with clichés, pat and rehearsed answers, and few moments of real insight of him, the position or the team. That’s all done on purpose. Cassel can’t do anything about his name being in the headlines, but he can make sure it’s not there because of something that came out of his mouth.

Still, every so often a bit of the real Cassel leaks out. The competitor in him sneaks out of the cage and makes an appearance before he’s coaxed back into the shadows. It happened this week when Cassel was asked if he likes to prove critics wrong.

“It is always nice to have that happen but at the same time, I don’t play this game for the people that are against me and think that I can’t do it,” said Cassel. “I play the game for the people that have always believed in me. I play that game for my family, for my wife, for my mother so it really comes down to that. There are going to be people, no matter where you go or what you do, there are going to be people who look at you and say, ‘you can’t do it’.”

The tone of his voice, the jut of his jaw and the fire in his eyes as he answered the question gave away the fact that while it’s not the No. 1 motivating factor for him, the chance to show everyone he can be a successful NFL quarterback – including the naysayers – is part of what drives him.

At this point in time, we don’t know where Matt Cassel’s future will take him or the Chiefs. There have been flashes of talent and skill that indicate he has some of the necessary qualities. There have also been moments when his failures have indicated he’s not nearly consistent enough right now to lead a team to a winning season.

That’s what makes the Monday night game against San Diego so important. It’s a benchmark for the team, but especially for Cassel. Last year, the Chargers rolled into Arrowhead Stadium in October and embarrassed the Chiefs and made Cassel look very bad. San Diego won by 30 points and Cassel completed just 10 of 25 passes (40 percent) for 97 yards (3.88 yards per attempt), one TD and three interceptions. It produced a passer rating of 25.3, one of his lowest ratings of the season and his 30 games as an NFL starting quarterback.

Cassel did not get much in the way of help in that first meeting with the Chargers. He was sacked five times, the offense generated just 203 total yards and Bobby Wade was the leading receiver, catching four passes for 66 yards.

The second time the teams met last season was not much better, as the Chargers won by 29 points in San Diego. Cassel was marginally better, hitting 19 of 31 passes (61.3 percent) for 178 yards (5.74 yards per attempt), one TD and one interception.

“Once you start winning ball games and you start playing well and the team starts playing well that takes care of itself,” Cassel said.

Monday night is but one leg of a 16-segment marathon for the Chiefs and Cassel. As he was quick to say the other day, “It is week one of 16 games. I don’t think this is our Super Bowl,” Cassel said.

But it’s a huge night for Matt Cassel, because it’s a huge season for him. He must establish that he has the consistency and the ability to lead the Chiefs to winning performances. The time is now.

**DeezNutz** · 09-11-2010, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla Thunder

We won't really know until the season plays out if he's got franchise credentials or not. Period.

We know this now.

What we don't know is whether or not he'll end up being serviceable.

**Rain Man** · 09-11-2010, 11:28 AM

I sure hope the Cassel thing is like when Trent Green first showed up, before he had all of his weapons in place.

**Bane** · 09-11-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I sure hope the Cassel thing is like when Trent Green first showed up, before he had all of his weapons in place.

I keep wanting to think the same thing,but deep down,I think we all know better.

Marcellus · 09-11-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

"And I know this based on the time we drafted....well...well there was that time that...but...shit"

I'm so tired of hearing this - we haven't made a strong bet on a young quarterback in 25 years --- A QUARTER OF A CENTURY --- and I'm supposed to listen to someone tell me that the fans wouldn't give one a chance.

Just exactly WTF do you base that on?

It's all CYA all the time with this guy. Cassel's terrible and THAT'S why the fans boo him. He's inaccurate, he's skittish, he's flat out bad.

If this franchise ever drafted and developed a young quarterback, he would be the most popular KC sports figure since George Brett. Kansas City is dying for a quarterback and jokers like you and Gretz are still hiding behind the same tired dogma that Peterson hamstrung the franchise with for 2 decades.

First off, I never said or eluded that I was against drafting a QB.

How do I know the fans would be impatient? Because I have been a member of CP since 2003.

JohnnyV13 · 09-11-2010, 11:33 AM

Yeah, that's hardly a well written article: no matter what you think of the content. Look at the lead.

That's a terrible, rambling sentance that hardly draws a reader into the article. Gretz writes conversationally, with a lot of fluffy qualifiers and awkwardly constructed sentances.

I doubt even he would say its a good example of his work.

**Rain Man** · 09-11-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bane_58

I keep wanting to think the same thing,but deep down,I think we all know better.

If Pioli hadn't seen Cassel in action I'd be more pessimistic. As it is, I'm worried, but still have some hope. Pioli had to know that trading for Cassel and passing on a top draftee would be a key decision, so you'd think he wouldn't do it without a whole lot of confidence in Cassel.

Chiefs Pantalones · 09-11-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

We know this now.

What we don't know is whether or not he'll end up being serviceable.

No, we don't. We haven't seen anything yet and won't until the season plays out. Odds are, with our luck, he won't be shit. But we won't know for sure until the season plays out. People can be geniousez with their nostradomous skills and say "oh I noz already hez da blacklegdde!" but we won't until the season plays out. It's fun though, that's why we're fans, we go by feeling. My gut feeling says even Haley doesn't think he'll work out. You can hear it in his voice in his pressers. He has NO confidence in the guy. He's just all we have. Until next year. If he doesn't work out.

DJ's left nut · 09-11-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus

First off, I never said or eluded that I was against drafting a QB.

How do I know the fans would be impatient? Because I have been a member of CP since 2003.

CP has fewer than 700 members with more than 1,000 posts at present (and a handful with over 40,000). It's a limited group of extremely hardcore fans.

I would hardly say that CP constitutes any sort of representative sample of the fanbase.

That's like saying the Branch Davidians were an accurate representation of your average Protestant.

This article was beyond worthless.

**the Talking Can** · 09-11-2010, 11:36 AM

That's pretty much the Bible of True Fan-ism right there...

holy shit

1...invoke the name of every great QB, imply false equivalence
2...pretend fans are responsible for a franchise never drafting a QB, because they have the audacity to boo shitty quarterbacks on shitty teams

3...don't spend one sentence actually focusing on his play on the field, his mechanics, his arm, his savy, his ANYTHING -no detailed breakdown of his actual performance

4...make another false comparison - 'he done some bad things and some good things' - which is a whitewash of point 3 and a knowing lie. he's done a bunch of shitty things and very few good things

5...pat yourself on the back for being so smart and go get a glass of milk and watch Touched By An Angel reruns while reminiscing fondly about that one game Damon Huard won that one time...it was fun, gosh...

**DeezNutz** · 09-11-2010, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla Thunder

No, we don't. We haven't seen anything yet and won't until the season plays out. Odds are, with our luck, he won't be shit. But we won't know for sure until the season plays out. People can be geniousez with their nostradomous skills and say "oh I noz already hez da blacklegdde!" but we won't until the season plays out. It's fun though, that's why we're fans, we go by feeling. My gut feeling says even Haley doesn't think he'll work out. You can hear it in his voice in his pressers. He has NO confidence in the guy. He's just all we have. Until next year. If he doesn't work out.

He's not going to develop, magically, an entirely different skill set. Thus, it doesn't take Doc Brown to know that he'll never be a franchise QB. Any half-ass evaluator of NFL talent can tell this.

What we don't know for sure is whether or not he'll be a colossal failure. Luckily, we hired a great turd polisher in Weis, so expect some dumbass fans to think that the piece of shit is prettier this year.

Chiefs Pantalones · 09-11-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

That's pretty much the Bible of True Fan-ism right there...

holy shit

1...invoke the name of every great QB, imply false equivalence
2...pretend fans are responsible for a franchise never drafting a QB, because they have the audacity to boo shitty quarterbacks on shitty teams

3...don't spend one sentence actually focusing on his play on the field, his mechanics, his arm, his savy, his ANYTHING -no detailed breakdown of his actual performance

4...make another false comparison - 'he done some bad things and some good things' - which is a whitewash of point 3 and a knowing lie. he's done a bunch of shitty things and very few good things

5...pat yourself on the back for being so smart and go get a glass of milk and watch Touched By An Angel reruns while reminiscing fondly about that one game Damon Huard won that one time...it was fun, gosh...

The only people I know of that are Chiefs fans that don't want to draft a QB high are the people on this site, none outside of this site. Kinda odd.

**DaneMcCloud** · 09-11-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus

First off, I never said or eluded that I was against drafting a QB.

How do I know the fans would be impatient? Because I have been a member of CP since 2003.

WRONG.

The overwhelming majority of Chiefsplanet members have supported a first round QB.

Anyone that knows a ****ing thing about the NFL and QB's in general realize that it's very rare that a rookie QB is ready to start from Day One.

If the Chiefs had drafted a QB last year or even this year, developed him for a couple of years while Cassel (or someone else started), I seriously doubt many people would complain.

**Bane** · 09-11-2010, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

If Pioli hadn't seen Cassel in action I'd be more pessimistic. As it is, I'm worried, but still have some hope. Pioli had to know that trading for Cassel and passing on a top draftee would be a key decision, so you'd think he wouldn't do it without a whole lot of confidence in Cassel.

Well he surely knows more about him than anyone else,but I just wonder how long he will "wait" for Cassel if he continues to struggle this year.

Chiefs Pantalones · 09-11-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

He's not going to develop, magically, an entirely different skill set. Thus, it doesn't take Doc Brown to know that he'll never be a franchise QB. Any half-ass evaluator of NFL talent can tell this.

What we don't know for sure is whether or not he'll be a colossal failure. Luckily, we hired a great turd polisher in Weis, so expect some dumbass fans to think that the piece of shit is prettier this year.

I'm going by Pioli. I trust his evaluation of talent. He's had his misses, like every GM, etc. This probably is a miss, but because of his reputation I'm willling to wait and see. Either way, it will be a fun season, IMO, to watch the young guys grow.

CrazyHorse · 09-11-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Easily the worst article by Gretz since Peterson's firing.

What a load of horseshit.

How'd I know your reaction? LOL

The article was not only reasonable from an expectation standpoint, it paints the witch hunters in the right light as well. I cant think of any clear thinking individual that would find this article unreasonable.

09-11-2010, 10:51 AM
AirForceChief Thread Killer Extraordinaire Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Monument, Co Casino cash: $10004930	Gretz On Cassel: Surviving The Process Well written, even handed article from Bob Gretz: There’s one thing that Matt Cassel knows, and if he doesn’t then somebody should give him the information. Len Dawson was booed by Chiefs fans. Terry Bradshaw was booed by Steelers fans. John Elway was booed by Broncos fans. Insert name of Hall of Fame quarterback and he was booed by fans of the insert name team he played for during his career. There were some Chiefs fans back in the day that believed Dawson didn’t take enough chances with his passes, that he threw short dinks and dunks and that he did not go down the field as much as he could have, especially since he was calling the plays. His career completion percentage of 57.1 percent, his career average of 7.7 yards per attempt and his 237 TD passes to 178 interceptions look like pretty good numbers now. But in the day, some Chiefs followers were unhappy and they let Dawson know it, firing verbal assaults from the stands at both Municipal and Arrowhead Stadiums. That’s a simple fact of life for an NFL starting quarterback. The scene gets played out over and over around the league. Guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have escaped it so far, but their careers are not over yet. They still have plenty of opportunities to throw interceptions or badly timed incompletions that will raise the vocal hackles of their fan base. Cassel reiterated the other day that he does not read papers, watch TV sports or listen to sports talk radio. I’m sure he doesn’t spend any time on Internet sites or web forums. “I just try to block it out,” Cassel said this week. “That is something that goes along with this job. You are always going to be tested and there is always going to be scrutiny and there is always going to be somebody saying, ‘hey, he is not good enough. He can’t do this, he can’t do that.’ “I have a job to do and right now my job is to be the quarterback of this team. I am going to go out and work hard and do everything I need to do to be productive on the field.” If one were to take the denunciations of Cassel that have poured forth through all those media portals that he does not pay attention to, then one could make the assumption Cassel and his position as the team’s starting quarterback engenders no confidence in the Chiefs and the team’s future. But caution should prevail in making that leap. Some unimpressed media types and a few callers to sports talk radio or posters to Internet sites do not constitute a majority of Chiefs fans. Not everyone has written him off after 15 starts for the team. While it might be more accurate to say he has not been embraced by the Chiefs Nation as a whole, it’s a stretch to paint him as the latest failure among franchise quarterbacks. Chiefs fans for decades now have screamed and complained about the team not drafting and developing their own quarterback. Based on some of the reaction to Cassel, it’s obvious those who bled red and gold would have no more patience with a young guy than an inexperienced quarterback who came from another team. They would chew him up and spit him out in a matter of years. And that’s the pisser in this whole thing. No position on the field requires more patience in developing a contributing player than quarterback. In fact all the other positions combined may not require the patience needed to find that franchise quarterback. Yet, it’s the position where the media, fans and even the teams struggle to deal with growth and development. It takes time to become a good quarterback, but impatience generally stops the clock dead in its tracks. The other day Todd Haley said that as far as he’s concerned no spot on the roster is ranks ahead of another. “The inside backer in the base defense is no more important than a gunner on the punt team,” Haley said. “The more our guys think that way, the better for us.” It’s all well and good if that kind of thinking can be created within a locker room. But everybody in that room knows, as does the head coach and his staff, the GM and his staff and the ownership family, that there is one player that IS more important, and that’s the starting quarterback. Whether he’s a so-called franchise QB, a care-taker, a game-manager, a rookie thrown to the wolves or a grizzled veteran playing out his final NFL days, the starting quarterback is the most important player on any pro football team. No other player has a greater effect on winning or losing than the guy taking the snaps. Consider this for a moment – Todd Haley was willing to jettison his offensive coordinator last year just 10 days before the start of the regular season because he knew the situation wasn’t going to work with Chan Gailey. Do you think if Haley thought for a minute that Cassel wasn’t up to the task, that the only quarterback the Chiefs added in the off-season would have been Tyler Palko? Asked for areas where he’s seen improvement from his starting quarterback and Haley gets pretty vague. But Friday he identified an area that while simple, is one of the most important elements for the success of a starting quarterback. “When he comes off the field, what he says he saw generally ends up being what it was,” Haley said. “I think that’s a real good quality to have. Even subtle things within a game, you’ll say to him why did you do this, and he’ll say this linebacker did this, the receiver stumbled, or that receiver was short, the safety did this. “Generally it’s pretty spot on what he sees. He sees the whole field. That was something that Kurt (Warner) was phenomenal at. A quarterback has to have great vision. Matt sees what’s happening.” Today’s game is built around the quarterbacks, and the teams that have great ones do everything they can to keep them and provide them with weapons. Those that don’t have the top-line quarterbacks are constantly searching for a player who can play the position well enough that he’s not an impediment to winning. These are all facts of football life. Head coaches and the quarterbacks themselves know it better than anybody, but they seldom will address or recognize that point in public. The pressure is tough enough without adding more fuel to the fire with your own hose. That’s why if you’ve listened to any of Cassel’s press conferences over the last two seasons you know that they were filled with clichés, pat and rehearsed answers, and few moments of real insight of him, the position or the team. That’s all done on purpose. Cassel can’t do anything about his name being in the headlines, but he can make sure it’s not there because of something that came out of his mouth. Still, every so often a bit of the real Cassel leaks out. The competitor in him sneaks out of the cage and makes an appearance before he’s coaxed back into the shadows. It happened this week when Cassel was asked if he likes to prove critics wrong. “It is always nice to have that happen but at the same time, I don’t play this game for the people that are against me and think that I can’t do it,” said Cassel. “I play the game for the people that have always believed in me. I play that game for my family, for my wife, for my mother so it really comes down to that. There are going to be people, no matter where you go or what you do, there are going to be people who look at you and say, ‘you can’t do it’.” The tone of his voice, the jut of his jaw and the fire in his eyes as he answered the question gave away the fact that while it’s not the No. 1 motivating factor for him, the chance to show everyone he can be a successful NFL quarterback – including the naysayers – is part of what drives him. At this point in time, we don’t know where Matt Cassel’s future will take him or the Chiefs. There have been flashes of talent and skill that indicate he has some of the necessary qualities. There have also been moments when his failures have indicated he’s not nearly consistent enough right now to lead a team to a winning season. That’s what makes the Monday night game against San Diego so important. It’s a benchmark for the team, but especially for Cassel. Last year, the Chargers rolled into Arrowhead Stadium in October and embarrassed the Chiefs and made Cassel look very bad. San Diego won by 30 points and Cassel completed just 10 of 25 passes (40 percent) for 97 yards (3.88 yards per attempt), one TD and three interceptions. It produced a passer rating of 25.3, one of his lowest ratings of the season and his 30 games as an NFL starting quarterback. Cassel did not get much in the way of help in that first meeting with the Chargers. He was sacked five times, the offense generated just 203 total yards and Bobby Wade was the leading receiver, catching four passes for 66 yards. The second time the teams met last season was not much better, as the Chargers won by 29 points in San Diego. Cassel was marginally better, hitting 19 of 31 passes (61.3 percent) for 178 yards (5.74 yards per attempt), one TD and one interception. “Once you start winning ball games and you start playing well and the team starts playing well that takes care of itself,” Cassel said. Monday night is but one leg of a 16-segment marathon for the Chiefs and Cassel. As he was quick to say the other day, “It is week one of 16 games. I don’t think this is our Super Bowl,” Cassel said. But it’s a huge night for Matt Cassel, because it’s a huge season for him. He must establish that he has the consistency and the ability to lead the Chiefs to winning performances. The time is now.
Posts: 1,855

09-11-2010, 11:28 AM	#17
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3068491 VARSITY	I sure hope the Cassel thing is like when Trent Green first showed up, before he had all of his weapons in place. __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit.
Posts: 141,647

09-11-2010, 11:33 AM	#20
JohnnyV13 Veteran Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tucson AZ Casino cash: $6115200	Yeah, that's hardly a well written article: no matter what you think of the content. Look at the lead. That's a terrible, rambling sentance that hardly draws a reader into the article. Gretz writes conversationally, with a lot of fluffy qualifiers and awkwardly constructed sentances. I doubt even he would say its a good example of his work.
Posts: 4,161

09-11-2010, 11:36 AM	#24
the Talking Can Supporter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: street Casino cash: $10022208	That's pretty much the Bible of True Fan-ism right there... holy shit 1...invoke the name of every great QB, imply false equivalence 2...pretend fans are responsible for a franchise never drafting a QB, because they have the audacity to boo shitty quarterbacks on shitty teams 3...don't spend one sentence actually focusing on his play on the field, his mechanics, his arm, his savy, his ANYTHING -no detailed breakdown of his actual performance 4...make another false comparison - 'he done some bad things and some good things' - which is a whitewash of point 3 and a knowing lie. he's done a bunch of shitty things and very few good things 5...pat yourself on the back for being so smart and go get a glass of milk and watch Touched By An Angel reruns while reminiscing fondly about that one game Damon Huard won that one time...it was fun, gosh... __________________ Clark Hunt: "Thank god for the Dominican pool boy"
Posts: 51,585