****OFFICIAL 2012 NBA PLAYOFFS THREAD****

[dirk digler]

Great sports weekend with the draft and now the NBA Playoffs starting today

First Round Matchups Today:

76ers vs Bulls
Knicks vs Heat
Magic vs Pacers
Mavs vs Thunder

Sunday:

Jazz vs Spurs
Celtics vs Hawks
Clippers vs Grizzlies
Nuggets vs Lakers

[okcchief]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

When Durant starts being as offensively efficient, as good a passer, and playing defense anywhere near as well as LeBron James, he'll move into the top spot. That could happen within the next few years considering Durant's massive development already, but by the end of this series? I don't see it.

Durant is underrated as a defender.

I'm not putting any of it on LeBron and I think they are both fantastic players. I think Durant is already more mature than LeBron and handles pressure better. That is part of the equation. I don't think it's crazy to think Durant could surpass LeBron where as you seem to think the thought is insane.

Let's also remember. This is one ****ing game. This series is not over. To judge LeBron or the Heat this harshly before the series is over isn't fair at all. God damn people are knee jerk. If the Thunder lose tomorrow people will suddenly say their done and that will be bullshit too.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by okcchief

Durant is underrated as a defender.

Durant did more to stop Lebron last night than Lebron did to stop Durant.

Lebron kept settling for horrible jumpers. Durant's length really bothered him.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by okcchief

Durant is underrated as a defender.

He's a very good defender. One of the best in the league when he sets his mind to it. He's just not the best defender in the NBA, which LeBron is and pretty much has to be for the Miami Heat to win over great teams.

I'm not putting any of it on LeBron and I think they are both fantastic players. I think Durant is already more mature than LeBron and handles pressure better. That is part of the equation. I don't think it's crazy to think Durant could surpass LeBron where as you seem to think the thought is insane.

Let's also remember. This is one ****ing game. This series is not over. To judge LeBron or the Heat this harshly before the series is over isn't fair at all. God damn people are knee jerk. If the Thunder lose tomorrow people will suddenly say their done and that will be bullshit too.

Durant is handling the pressure very well this postseason (he hasn't as much in the past, but he's been very good in this area so far). Never been in the NBA Finals, though. That's a whole different ballgame and, as you said, we've only just begun. If the Heat manage to win tomorrow, they'll immediately take home advantage back and the first two games will have been considered a success for them.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Until lebron wins a championship, he will never be on the road to being the all time greatest.

MJ didn't win a championship for what...7-8 years before he got a great team around him? Was he not on the road to being one of the all-time greats, too, at that time?

In reality, LeBron is one of the most statistically dominant players ever to play in the NBA. Not only is he on the way to being an all-time great (and we're talking at least top 10 here if his career progresses as most expect it to), he basically already is one (28th all-time in win shares ahead of guys like Kidd, Havlicek, Pierce, Nash, Pippen, and Ewing). http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html

[Hammock Parties]

Lebron's defense sure made a huge difference last night!

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by Fine Uncut Meat

Lebron's defense sure made a huge difference last night!

Do you really think anybody in the NBA can stop Kevin Durant when he's on and making jump shots like that? There's only so much great individual defense can do against great individual offense at this level, but, of course, many people have explained this point to you already in this thread.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KevB

Why do we continue to discuss The Decision? It was stupid. The signing celebration? Dumb. I lost a lot of respect for him and then that organization. He chose to cast his lot with these players, absolutely. I think most agree on these points. However, none of that has any bearing at all on the reality of the current situation and the analysis of these playoffs.

All of the things I said are true. LeBron is asked to do more on the court than Durant.

And again, he has nobody to blame but himself for that. Most teams have GMs who decide what personnel combinations go together. Bad GMs don't. Look at New York. They bring in Melo and Amare, two guys who work the same exact space. A clear example of a team building off talent with no concept of how that talent works together. I can see how Bosh fits into this whole mix. We're in year 2, and the Wade/LeBron mix doesn't make sense for a million reasons. Their egos don't seem to mix. It almost seems like when one guy takes over, it's at the expense of others. The Heat would've been better off spending Wade money on a dynamic point guard.

Instead, LeBron played GM. This is why front offices should design teams, not players. If LeBron is tired, it's because he created a scenario where he was so vitally important to the team that he can't possibly sit.

I don't think some realize just how disruptive he is on defense....offense is all that's discussed 100% of the time on message boards. Durant can't do some things that LeBron can do, and some would argue that makes LeBron a more valuable player. I'd take either and be pretty happy.

LeBron is an unbelievable defender. Like I said, one of the most talented players in the game.

In terms of leadership....ehh, hard to say. He was considered a hell of a leader when he took Cleveland to the championship series. I think his positive attitude got Miami through that Indiana series this year. Yet, there does seem to be something missing at times, hard to put a finger on it.

When you read into the fine print, you'll see there should have been red flags all over the place. In Cleveland, he demanded that the practice facilities be built near his house. He demanded that the team court his posse around with him, sometimes making it seem like his posse was treated better than his own teammates. When he left Cleveland, he was more concerned about pulling off the publicity stunt for "the Decision" than telling his own teammates. How dick is that, that Varejao, Dan Gilbert, Mo Williams, etc... the first place they hear about his decision is on national TV? Let's also not forget that in a public press conference, he called out his teammates in Cleveland, and suggested that he couldn't do it all by himself. He threw his teammates under the bus.

In Miami, early on, there were talks that he and Spoelstra didn't get along. The Big 3 complained about practices being too tough. In Bosh's words, they just wanted to "chill." To this day, there is word that LeBron resents that Pat Riley is so tough on his players. In the middle of the season, LeBron talked about not ruling out going back to Cleveland. Did he ever once think about how that shit sounds to his... Miami teammates?

Again, I don't think he tries to be a dick. But he just is. For a guy as social as he is, he doesn't seem to have the social awareness to understand other people, including his teammates. And in so many cases, we've seen him put his self-promotion above his teammates. And in so many cases, we hear him complain and blame other people when things go sour, but you don't see him step up genuinely and suggest that he, as a leader on the team, needs to be better himself.

He's not a good leader or period. I think he has the best intentions. But there is no "if" or "maybe" on this point.

Oh, and using Jordan as an example of leadership probably isn't the best play. He ran teammates, coaches and peers over. He was a force of nature who chastised his teammates into playing hard and coming along for the ride. I love him and he's the best ever, but leadership not in his top 5 qualities IMO. I'd throw a guy like Duncan out there....now he's the consummate teammate and leader to me.

I get what you're saying here, but leaders respond in very different ways. Some leaders are just amazing people to be around. Tony Richardson. Don Mattingly (who, not surprisingly, is now one of the best MLB managers in the game). These are the guys who lead by sharing, taking young guys under their wing, and always being the first to step up for their teammates. You don't see T-Rich in LeBron. Maybe he's nice to teammates (maybe), but he doesn't have it in spades the way the best leaders do. Then you have guys like Peyton, Jerry Rice, Kobe, or Jordan. These guys are so competitive, they're complete control freaks and complete dicks. But they demand excellence from everyone around them. Peyton will not play with a teammate who isn't willing to put in extra hours. Jordan was a complete dick. What these guys all have in common is that they elevated the play of the people around them. You don't see LeBron do that. Yeah, sometimes you see him take over games and sometimes you see him have fun with his teammates. But you don't see the leadership you see from all-time greats.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by Fine Uncut Meat

Durant did more to stop Lebron last night than Lebron did to stop Durant.

Lebron kept settling for horrible jumpers. Durant's length really bothered him.

I know you didn't watch the 4th quarter and are simply trolling for the sake of it, but Sefolosha was guarding LeBron for nearly the entirety of it, not Durant (which, of course, gave Durant the energy to do more on offense). He did a pretty good job of making things tough on him, too. Also LeBron didn't settle for too many jumpers at all in my recollection, he drove several times down the stretch. I've seen him be far more jump shot happy. He at least tried to get to the line when he could.

[okcchief]

Originally Posted by Fine Uncut Meat

Lebron's defense sure made a huge difference last night!

LeBron was put on Perkins to start the game. He pretty much played rover. That strategy didn't work that well, but that's on the coach.

Their best chance is to put LeBron on Durant and Wade on Westbrook, but no way they can play that many minutes doing that. Chasing those 2 around fatigue is going to be an issue. They are gonna have to play Anthony, Miller, James, Cole more and hope they produce.

Last nights game falls on coaching, Wade and Bosh. I don't have a clue why LeBron is taking so much heat. They could turn it around and still be champions. What then? Durant will be awful?

Also, why does Bosh suddenly think he's a 3 point shooter?

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

MJ didn't win a championship for what...7-8 years before he got a great team around him? Was he not on the road to being one of the all-time greats, too, at that time?

In reality, LeBron is one of the most statistically dominant players ever to play in the NBA. Not only is he on the way to being an all-time great (and we're talking at least top 10 here if his career progresses as most expect it to), he basically already is one (28th all-time in win shares ahead of guys like Kidd, Havlicek, Pierce, Nash, Pippen, and Ewing). http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html

And you keep pointing to statistics, like they mean anything.

Quick, what recent NBA player (played in the last 10 years) has a better career scoring average than Kobe and Dwayne Wade, and has the 6th highest PPG in NBA history? (scroll down)



















Allen Iverson.
He also averaged over 6 assists and 2 steals per game. Will he ever be considered one of the best in the game? Absolutely not. Was he considered the best in the game at most moments of his career? No, he was not.

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by okcchief

LeBron was put on Perkins to start the game. He pretty much played rover. That strategy didn't work that well, but that's on the coach.

Their best chance is to put LeBron on Durant and Wade on Westbrook, but no way they can play that many minutes doing that. Chasing those 2 around fatigue is going to be an issue. They are gonna have to play Anthony, Miller, James, Cole more and hope they produce.

Last nights game falls on coaching, Wade and Bosh. I don't have a clue why LeBron is taking so much heat. They could turn it around and still be champions. What then? Durant will be awful?

Also, why does Bosh suddenly think he's a 3 point shooter?

Yeah. Wade's FG percentage last night was unbelievably awful. For half of the 3rd quarter and a good chunk of the 4th, Wade was the coldest shooter on the court, yet he was the one taking the most jump shots. I'm not sure if that falls on coaching, where the team isn't running plays that make use of the extra pass, or it falls on Lebron to say, "My turn. Give me the damn ball."

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

And you keep pointing to statistics, like they mean anything.

Quick, what recent NBA player (played in the last 10 years) has a better career scoring average than Kobe and Dwayne Wade, and has the 6th highest PPG in NBA history? (scroll down)


Allen Iverson.
He also averaged over 6 assists and 2 steals per game. Will he ever be considered one of the best in the game? Absolutely not. Was he considered the best in the game at most moments of his career? No, he was not.

I mean, stats are a fickle thing, but in this case you used scoring. KC Connection was talking about wins. Those are two different things.

[okcchief]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

I know you didn't watch the 4th quarter and are simply trolling for the sake of it, but Sefolosha was guarding LeBron for nearly the entirety of it, not Durant (which, of course, gave Durant the energy to do more on offense). He did a pretty good job of making things tough on him, too. Also LeBron didn't settle for too many jumpers at all in my recollection, he drove several times down the stretch. I've seen him be far more jump shot happy. He at least tried to get to the line when he could.

Sefalosha is one of the best perimeter defenders in the game. I think this playoff has finally made people aware of that. Thabo is the best defensive player on the team. I've always found it silly that people, even our own announce team, position Ibaka for defensive player of the year when he's really just a shot blocker. Thabo, Nick and Perk are clearly better defenders. Serge can protect the shit out of the rim though.

[okcchief]

I'm also confused why everyone thinks its fixed this year. NO had decent odds to win. The year it should have been questioned was when Chicago got it with a 1% chance and a hometown guy was the clear number 1 pick.

[okcchief]

Q