These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[milkman]

Originally Posted by a1na2

That's not what you were illuding to, you claimed that they were wrong and that I should go along with that sentiment. I do not. I think that as parents they did what they could with what they had to do it with. They, for whatever reason (reasons we have no say in) did not choose to take the kid to a doctor.

What you have to ask them is did anyone in their immediate family ever go see a doctor due to illness. If they did, I'd agree that they were wrong. If they did not there is nothing to argue about and it is still none of our business.

Where did I say they were wrong?

Originally Posted by milkman

You miss the point.

The government has taken my right to choose whether or not I wear seastbelts, or my grandchildren.

Eventually they will decide to take awy the right to choose whether we, or our children, should seek medical attention.

And it is cases like these that will lead to that decision.

[Jenson71]

We have many laws that seem intruding and "none of our business," but in fact, they are legitimately protecting someone's rights, or should be, in some way. In this case, we are intruding the parent's freedom of religion because their eleven year old daughter is now dead because of that religion. In another, similar case, if a Muslim parent was extreme in their belief and forced a new baby to fast during Ramadan, leading to the child's death, we would seek out action against the parent even though it is none of our business.

Child negligence, drug laws, property laws, etc., may not be any of our direct business, but, because we are Americans and humans it is our business to be involved and work out policies that affect the issues. This is a very simple explanation on a complex topic, Law, that I won't and can't go into for various reasons right now.

You have indicated your beliefs on abortion. I can't think of a better example. In your opinion, abortion is state sponsored murder. You would probably want a law against it. Yet, the people for abortion would claim it is none of your business and you should stay out of it.

The argument that I should stay out of this issue because it is none of my business is a weak one, a1na2.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by a1na2

The only suggestion I have for you is to get over it.

Mind your own ****ing business.

By the way, the word you were looking for in your previous post was "alluding".

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

The argument that I should stay out of this issue because it is none of my business is a weak one, a1na2.

The lives of the Neumans is none of your business. Why is it that you can't figure that out? You don't get to make the calls in their situation. You don't even get to have an input in that situation.

Your response shows you don't have a clue.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by milkman

Mind your own ****ing business.

It is my business. You told me that you were always pissed off.

Enjoy your ulcers, bleeding ulcers and perforated intestines. (all results from not "getting over it".)

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

The lives of the Neumans is none of your business. Why is it that you can't figure that out? You don't get to make the calls in their situation. You don't even get to have an input in that situation.

Your response shows you don't have a clue.

I've already shown how 1.) it doesn't have to directly be my business and 2.) it can be considered my business, just as you have an opinion on abortion, though it's not "your business."

All in all, I think your defense for these bad parents is not because you're interested in any kind of protection of them, but instead, it comes from your own insecurities about your religion and Christianity in general. When you see an attack on a person who reads the Bible and replaces it with their common sense, you perceive that to be an attack on yourself and your own values.

I think I'm going to close up on this topic. I enjoyed it. Everything from I condone partial birth abortion to I should be prosecuted, and especially, how I'm too young to fully understand the entire situation, and how you feel sorry for my future children. I'll let you have the last word on this between us two.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by a1na2

It is my business. You told me that you were always pissed off.

Enjoy your ulcers, bleeding ulcers and perforated intestines. (all results from not "getting over it".)

No. it's not any of your ****ing business.

I'm nearly 50 years old, and my most recent medical exam, about 6 months ago, my doctor, who is about 10 years younger, said he wishes he was as healthy as me.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

All in all, I think your defense for these bad parents is not because you're interested in any kind of protection of them, but instead, it comes from your own insecurities about your religion and Christianity in general. When you see an attack on a person who reads the Bible and replaces it with their common sense, you perceive that to be an attack on yourself and your own values.

That is the most stupid thing I've ever seen in my life. First, this has nothing to do with my religion. You attacking me in that respect is ludicrious because of your obvious inability to even come to grips with the Catholic faith.

This whole argument is centered around the fact that you trying to enforce your beliefs of what is right and wrong in a situation that does not involve you in any way, shape or form.

You apparently have lost the argument as you have resorted to attacking, not me, but my religion.

My God must be better than your god. By the way you speak I'm sure they are not the one and same. I do know the God of the Catholic Church is the same God I serve, but I have no clue what god you do serve, if you actually serve or that your affiliation with the Catholic Church is a family forced issue that you cannot get away from.

This is not meant to be the last word, but if you don't have the intent to defend your remarks let it end with this.

The situation that the Neumans faced with the illness of their child is none of your business regardless of how much you feel that it is.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by milkman

No. it's not any of your ****ing business.

I'm nearly 50 years old, and my most recent medical exam, about 6 months ago, my doctor, who is about 10 years younger, said he wishes he was as healthy as me.

dude, get a grip on things and get over it.

You are missing the point that I'm just giving you something to be pissed about ... you see ... I don't care.

[Adept Havelock]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

DA: Wis. parents who prayed as daughter died to face charges

By ROBERT IMRIE
Associated Press Writer

WESTON, Wis. (AP) -- Parents who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes were charged Monday with second-degree reckless homicide.

The father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented."

She announced the charges Monday during a news conference at the Everest Metro Police Department with Police Chief Dan Vergin. Vergin has said Dale and Leilani Neumann told investigators their daughter Madeline last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots.

The couple face up to 25 years in prison if convicted.

Madeline - called Kara by her parents - died Easter Sunday at the family's rural Weston home. An autopsy determined she died from undiagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body. The girl likely had some symptoms of the disease for several weeks and months, court records said.

The couple and their attorney did not immediately return messages left by The Associated Press.

Falstad said the Neumanns have cooperated with investigators and were not under arrest. They have agreed to make an initial court appearance Wednesday, she said.

Most parents would seek immediate medical help for a child who cannot speak, eat, drink, walk or breathe easily as was the case with Kara for about 48 hours before she died, Falstad said.

There may be a precedent-setting religious defense and issues of parental rights, "however, neither is absolute," the prosecutor said. The state must protect children, she said.

Leilani Neumann, 40, told AP previously she never expected her daughter to die. The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people and have nothing against doctors, she said.

According to the criminal complaint, the mother tried to feed her daughter chicken broth on Easter. "Shortly after that she stopped breathing," the mother told investigators.

Mrs. Neumann said she never considered taking the girl, a straight-A student who was being home-schooled, to a doctor.

"We just thought it was a spiritual attack and we prayed for her. My husband Dale was crying and mentioned taking Kara to the doctor and I said, 'The Lord's going to heal her and we continued to pray,'" the mother said in a written statement to police.

On the day the girl died, the parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy on March 24. "They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,'" the medical examiner wrote in a report.

The father told investigators he noticed his daughter was weak and slower for about two weeks but he attributed it to symptoms of the girl reaching puberty, the complaint said.

He said she ate a meal from McDonald's on March 21.

But by late the next afternoon, according to the criminal complaint, the father wrote an e-mail with the headline, "Help our daughter needs emergency prayer!!!!." It said his daughter was "very weak and pale at the moment with hardly any strength."

The girl's grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that she learned her granddaughter could not walk or talk on March 22 and advised Leilani Neumann to take the girl to a doctor.

Randall Wormgoor, a friend of the Neumanns, told police that Dale Neumann led Bible studies at his business, Monkey Mo Coffee Shop, and believed physical illness was due to sin, curable by prayer and by asking for forgiveness from God, the complaint said.

Wormgoor said he and his wife, Althea, were at the Neumann home when the girl died. Wormgoor said he urged the father to seek medical help and was told the illness "was a test of faith for the Neumann family and asked the Wormgoors to join them in praying for Kara to get well," the complaint said.

Althea Wormgoor said she "implored" the parents to seek medical help for the girl, the complaint said.

Evalani Gordon eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California, who called police on a non-emergency line to report the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.

One relative told police that Kara's mother believed the girl "died because the devil is trying to stop Leilani from starting her own ministry," the complaint said.

The Neumanns said they moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago. The couple has three other children, ages 13 to 16 who are living with relatives.

[KCChiefsMan]

good lock them up. I bet their reaction to their daughters death was "oh well, I guess that's what the lord wanted"

religion makes people stupid and crazy sometimes. It sounds like they almost wanted their daughter to die.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

Originally Posted by KCChiefsMan

It sounds like they almost wanted their daughter to die.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. It's hard raising a kid with a disability, and it wouldn't surprise if any of these spirtual healers just didn't want to deal with it. JMO.

[MIAdragon]

GUILTY BITCH!

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/817...g-daughter-die

US mother guilty of letting daughter die

A mother accused of praying instead of seeking medical help for her dying 11-year-old daughter was found guilty of reckless homicide.

A Marathon County jury deliberated for about three and a half hours before convicting Leilani Neumann, 41, of Weston. She faces up to 25 years in prison, but no sentencing date had been set.

Neumann's daughter Madeline died from untreated diabetes on March 23, 2008, surrounded by people praying for her. When she stopped breathing, her parents' business and Bible study partners finally called the emergency dispatcher.

Prosecutors contend a reasonable parent would have known something was gravely wrong with Madeline and that her mother recklessly killed her by ignoring obvious symptoms, such as her inability to walk or talk.

During closing arguments, Marathon County district attorney Jill Falstad described Neumann as a religious zealot who let her daughter, called Kara by her parents, die as a test of faith.

"Basic medical care would have saved Kara's life - fluids and insulin," Falstad said. "There was plenty of time to save Kara's life."

Defence lawyer Gene Linehan said Neumann didn't realise her daughter was so ill and did all she could do to help, in line with the family's belief in faith-healing.

He said Neumann was a devout Christian and took good care of her four children.

"The woman did everything she could to help her," Linehan said. "That is the injustice in this case."

Neumann remained free on bond. Her husband, Dale, faces the same charge and was scheduled to stand trial in July.

[Bowser]

Good.

Any parent who can't employ common sense when it comes to their child isn't worthy of being a parent.

[The_Doctor10]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Freedom of Religion is part of our country.

They get to choose whether they go to a doctor.

It's a bad thing that happened but there isn't anything that should be done about it.

What I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways.

The next thing you know the government will make all of your decisions for you and also take all of your stuff to distribute to others .. you know, like Hillary and Obama want to do.

What a stupid ****ing argument. It's not just 'freedom of religion' and that's that; these people let their little girl die. Your argument essentially suggests that because some Islamic nutbar fundamentalist steps onto a city bus and blows himself up, it's okay because 'that's his religion'.

This is criminally negligent homicide, not freedom of religion.