Owners of Toyota Cars in Rebellion Over Accidents Caused by Sudden acceleration.

[HemiEd]

Owners of Toyota Cars in Rebellion Over Series of Accidents Caused by Sudden Acceleration


Anyone else been following this story? They had a pretty graphic show on nightline about it last night.


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Runawa...ory?id=8980479

Refusing to accept the explanation of Toyota and the federal government, hundreds of Toyota owners are in rebellion after a series of accidents caused by what they call "runaway cars."


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Department of Transportation: underlying defect causes accelerators to stick.

More PhotosSafety analysts found an estimated 2000 cases in which owners of Toyota cars including Camry, Prius and Lexus, reported that their cars surged without warning up to speeds of 100 miles per hour.

CLICK HERE FOR MORE OF THE RUNAWAY TOYOTAS STORY.

Toyota says the incidents are caused by floor mats becoming stuck under gas pedals, but owners say that's not what happened to them.

Watch the full report tonight on 'World News with Charles Gibson' and 'Nightline'.

"I'm absolutely certain that in my situation, it was not the floor mats," Elizabeth James told ABC News. She was driving her Toyota Prius outside Denver, CO when she says it suddenly shot up to 90 miles an hour, even though her foot was on the brake and not the gas pedal.

"I kept going faster and faster," James said. "And all of a sudden… my foot was pressing on the brake super, super hard and I wasn't slowing down."

James and some other Toyota owners suspect the accidents have been caused by some kind of glitch in the electronic computer system used in Toyotas that controls the throttle.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...at-recall.html

[themanwithnoname]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

They have only been a factor in this country for about 35 years, but yeah, they are the almighty for ever and ever.

I merely posted this update because I think there is a lot more to it than many want to acknowledge. Hopefully the entire picture will be clear one of these days.

I agree. If only these people would acknowledge they had a mental slip up and mashed the accelerator and then their feeble brains freaked out, it'd be better.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by dilligaf

In Feb 2010 either Motortrend or Car and Driver did a test in which they took a V6 Camry upto varying speeds as high as 100 MPH and hit the brakes with the throttle fully pressed. The car stopped with no problems and even stopped from 70 MPH if I remember correctly shorter than a Ford Taurus without the gas pressed.

Link?

I think I heard that that very test car had NASCAR brakes installed by those pesky foreigners.

See how that works?

Originally Posted by themanwithnoname

I agree. If only these people would acknowledge they had a mental slip up and mashed the accelerator and then their feeble brains freaked out, it'd be better.

Do you think this speaks of the Toyota owners intellect? Not really an issue with other cars, only Lexus and Toyota owners can't keep track of which is the "go pedal" and which is the "stop pedal?"

[dilligaf]

[QUOTE=HemiEd;8737285]Link?

I think I heard that that very test car had NASCAR brakes installed by those pesky foreigners.

See how that works?
See how what works? That you post an article that comes from paid consults by attorneys that are suing Toyota.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Link?

I think I heard that that very test car had NASCAR brakes installed by those pesky foreigners.

See how that works?




Do you think this speaks of the Toyota owners intellect? Not really an issue with other cars, only Lexus and Toyota owners can't keep track of which is the "go pedal" and which is the "stop pedal?"

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...on?redirect=no

http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/co...ease-stop.html

Two separate tests, both with the same results: the brakes will stop the car, no matter what the engine is doing.

[HemiEd]

[QUOTE=dilligaf;8737309]

A Senator from Iowa is a paid consultant for an attorney suing Toyota? ABC News?

[dilligaf]

Http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-acceleration

[dilligaf]

[QUOTE=HemiEd;8737326]

Originally Posted by dilligaf

A Senator from Iowa is a paid consultant for an attorney suing Toyota? ABC News?

The report comes from Sean Kane and Michael Pecht who are the consults.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...on?redirect=no

http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/co...ease-stop.html

Two separate tests, both with the same results: the brakes will stop the car, no matter what the engine is doing.

Thanks for the links, interesting, I hadn't seen these. Maybe this might explain some of the contradiction.

To overcome the engine's force, you must stand on the brakes for all you're worth. It's actually worse to just continuously use the brakes moderately hard, as this will not cause the car to stop; instead, the brakes will quickly overheat and fade, becoming ineffective.

They go on to say, if just sliding it into neutral, braking is normal.

[HemiEd]

[QUOTE=dilligaf;8737339]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

The report comes from Sean Kane and Michael Pecht who are the consults.

By Paul A. Eisenstein, The Detroit Bureau

That’s a possibility being raised by Sen. Chuck Grassley, an Iowa Republican, who has sent a letter to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or NHTSA, questioning the results of two studies conducted for the agencies, in particular one done by NASA that found no evidence of electronic gremlins that might cause Toyota vehicles to race out of control.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Thanks for the links, interesting, I hadn't seen these. Maybe this might explain some of the contradiction.



They go on to say, if just sliding it into neutral, braking is normal.

The thing is, in a panic situation, a person is not going to have any trouble applying full braking force. No one will be sitting in their car, accelerating wildly, and think, "Nah, I'm pushing the brake hard enough, no need to push any harder." One guy literally bent his gas pedal by pushing so hard.

I don't really blame the drivers, in a full panic situation, you really have very little control of your body. Read about how people actually act when they're drowning. They go through very specific motions that are always the same, because they have no control of their body. Their reflexes completley take over.

Similarly, a person panicking in a car accelerating out of control will not look down to check which pedal they are pushing, they will instinctively push as hard as they can on the pedal they know is the brake.

Rather than continuing to look for electronic gremlins that no one has been able to find, I would look into the placement of the pedals themselves. Are they located so that someone (especially someone unfamiliar with the car) might momentarily mistake one for the other?

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

The thing is, in a panic situation, a person is not going to have any trouble applying full braking force. No one will be sitting in their car, accelerating wildly, and think, "Nah, I'm pushing the brake hard enough, no need to push any harder." One guy literally bent his gas pedal by pushing so hard.

I don't really blame the drivers, in a full panic situation, you really have very little control of your body. Read about how people actually act when they're drowning. They go through very specific motions that are always the same, because they have no control of their body. Their reflexes completley take over.

Similarly, a person panicking in a car accelerating out of control will not look down to check which pedal they are pushing, they will instinctively push as hard as they can on the pedal they know is the brake.

Rather than continuing to look for electronic gremlins that no one has been able to find, I would look into the placement of the pedals themselves. Are they located so that someone (especially someone unfamiliar with the car) might momentarily mistake one for the other?

Do you really think it is that cut and dry?

In reading the Edmunds test, the driver was Mr. Edmund himself. Presumably, a pretty learned driver since he is in the testing business, who knew exactly what was about to take place on a test track.

I just think there may be a gray area here, where an unsuspecting normal driver, in a normal traffic situation, probably wouldn't "stand on the brakes" immediately "for all your worth" as stated must happen for the brakes to overcome the engine.

Possibly by the time they do stand on them, they are already into brake fade, and finally brake failure mode.

And you are right, panic is going to be a big factor. Looking back at the Highway Patrolman that was driving the Lexus, he must have just totally freaked out, to allow that to happen and 4 people die.

[Radar Chief]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

The thing is, in a panic situation, a person is not going to have any trouble applying full braking force. No one will be sitting in their car, accelerating wildly, and think, "Nah, I'm pushing the brake hard enough, no need to push any harder." One guy literally bent his gas pedal by pushing so hard.

I don't really blame the drivers, in a full panic situation, you really have very little control of your body. Read about how people actually act when they're drowning. They go through very specific motions that are always the same, because they have no control of their body. Their reflexes completley take over.

Similarly, a person panicking in a car accelerating out of control will not look down to check which pedal they are pushing, they will instinctively push as hard as they can on the pedal they know is the brake.

Rather than continuing to look for electronic gremlins that no one has been able to find, I would look into the placement of the pedals themselves. Are they located so that someone (especially someone unfamiliar with the car) might momentarily mistake one for the other?

Actually been in any panic situations?
My experience is that many people in a panic situation tend to lock up and do almost nothing.
Motorcyclists call it “target fixation” where a person freezes up and stares down what they’re about to run into forgetting to steer and/or brake.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Do you really think it is that cut and dry?

In reading the Edmunds test, the driver was Mr. Edmund himself. Presumably, a pretty learned driver since he is in the testing business, who knew exactly what was about to take place on a test track.

I just think there may be a gray area here, where an unsuspecting normal driver, in a normal traffic situation, probably wouldn't "stand on the brakes" immediately "for all your worth" as stated must happen for the brakes to overcome the engine.

Possibly by the time they do stand on them, they are already into brake fade, and finally brake failure mode.

And you are right, panic is going to be a big factor. Looking back at the Highway Patrolman that was driving the Lexus, he must have just totally freaked out, to allow that to happen and 4 people die.

Try it yourself. I did this morning, and I didn't need to get anywhere near "standing on the brakes" for it to become obvious that I had more than enough braking power to overcome the engine.

Again, read the accounts from people in these situations. No one talks about the brakes working to slow the car, then giving out. Everyone talks about how the car suddenly takes off and there's nothing they can do about it.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Try it yourself. I did this morning, and I didn't need to get anywhere near "standing on the brakes" for it to become obvious that I had more than enough braking power to overcome the engine.

Again, read the accounts from people in these situations. No one talks about the brakes working to slow the car, then giving out. Everyone talks about how the car suddenly takes off and there's nothing they can do about it.

To do that, I would have to put my body in a Toyota. That is not happening voluntarily as long as I have other options.

But, I was only citing the article that you linked and their findings. I have read the accounts, and some of them are pretty graphic.

But I think we both agree, when in panic mode, the human brain doesn't always perform well, like it does in a staged test.

The best news out of all of this, is that it has had enough exposure, that people should know what to do if they didn't already.

[Bugeater]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

The CHP car did have the power of the Toyota's engine working against it, the exact same power the Toyota's brakes would have had to overcome.

Against my better judgement, I did try it myself on the way to work. I floored the throttle, and when I was at 80, I hit the brakes with my left foot. I didn't even have to press very hard on the brakes, and the results were obvious. I was slowing down, really quickly, even with the gas still floored.

I lived in CO for the first 27 years of my life, I am well aware of overheating brakes on steep descents. The major factor in that is the length of time pressing on the brakes. On a descent like that, you want to keep the car moving, but slowly, so you are intentionally increasing the amount of time that the brakes are applied. In my car this morning, I'm pretty sure I would have been stopped in about 30 seconds or so, an absolute maximum of a minute. That's not nearly long enough to overheat brakes.

I haven't read any of these stories that describe the driver fighting against the car, controlling the speed with the brakes and succeeding for a while, until the brakes gave out and the car took off. They all seem to be some variation of "I had to hit the brakes, but instead of slowing, the car took off suddenly." Does that seem fishy to you?

The whole thing seems weird to be honest, but I have yet to hear an explanation that I find believable. The Mrs has one of the Toyotas in question, it has a 24 valve V6 engine that has a shitload of power, and I've been tempted to try it myself. But I would have to find a freeway free of heavy traffic and I don't really want to put the car through that type of abuse.

I've also watched NASCAR short track races where they have cameras on the brakes, and as soon as the driver hits the brake coming into a corner, the rotors instantly start glowing red. And those are brakes that are designed for high speed braking. I don't think brakes overheating and failing in a 30 second timeframe is all that far-fetched.