**2014 Official NBA Playoffs Thread**

[-King-]

Round 1:

EAST:

#8 Hawks @ #1 Pacers
#7 Bobcats @ #2 Heat
#6 Nets @ #3 Raptors
#5 Wizards @ #4 Bulls

WEST:
#8 Mavericks @ #1 Spurs
#7 Grizzlies @ #2 Thunder
#6 Warriors @ #3 Clippers
#5 Blazers @ #4 Rockets

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball

There are a lot of people out there that don't believe in the clutch theory in baseball. Things tend to b even out over a large enough sample size.

Jeter is an exception because he has an impressive sample size (more than one full season of playoff at bats). And the sample size pretty much shows he is exactly the same hitter in clutch situations (including the playoffs, where you see a lot of the best pitching staffs) as he is in normal situations, which is absolutely mind-blowing.

In most cases, it's subjective. Anyone who's ever watched ARod hit in the playoffs know that he just wasn't the same dominant hitter in big situations save for one season.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

That's the thing though. They are a collection of small sample sizes. Meaning one bad slump when his timing off wwould make things look bad for him....arod

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball

That's the thing though. They are a collection of small sample sizes. Meaning one bad slump when his timing off wwould make things look bad for him....arod

In the case of Jeter, you also sprinkle in stats in the link on high leverage situations, 2-out situations, at bats in the 7th inning and the stats are meaningful. Jeter's probably as close to a statistical representation of "clutch" as you'll find. I think I read that Papi is up there too.

A lot of it is subjective. I agree. But there's also the school of thought that gamers don't slump when the stakes are high. It's not like ARod had one or two slumps. He had 11 playoff seasons and save for one year, was extremely unremarkable. Statistically and a pure eyeball test where he did not look comfortable or look like the same hitter in the clutch. Which goes back to the idea that stats don't always tell the whole story. Some players in all sports have "it" and you know it when you see it.

[milkman]

I think really ****ing stupid to compare "clutch" situations in different sports.

In basebal, it's just batter against the pitcher.
In football, the QB needs help from from several different places, the O-Line, the guys catching (or dropping) the pass, and from the defense.

Both Marino and Montana put their team is position to win a lot of playoff games, but where the 9ers defense showed up, the Dolphins D didn't.

Had Marino gotten any defensive support, he'd be viewed in an entirely different light.

Had Kerr, Paxton, Winningham, etc. missed shots when MJ gave up the ball in crucial moments, he'd be viewed in an entirely different light.

Had teammates madesome shots when James has given up the ball, he would also be viewed differently.

Can't stand James, but the critisisms are just ****ing stupid.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by milkman

I think really ****ing stupid to compare "clutch" situations in different sports.

In basebal, it's just batter against the pitcher.
In football, the QB needs help from from several different places, the O-Line, the guys catching (or dropping) the pass, and from the defense.

Both Marino and Montana put their team is position to win a lot of playoff games, but where the 9ers defense showed up, the Dolphins D didn't.

Had Marino gotten any defensive support, he'd be viewed in an entirely different light.

Had Kerr, Paxton, Winningham, etc. missed shots when MJ gave up the ball in crucial moments, he'd be viewed in an entirely different light.

Had teammates madesome shots when James has given up the ball, he would also be viewed differently.

Can't stand James, but the critisisms are just ****ing stupid.

If you don't like the Marino and Montana comparisons, then try Montana and Peyton. You can't explain it. You just see it. He doesn't always look comfortable in big situations.

MJ wouldn't be viewed in a different light. He hit 50% of his game winning shots, scored 35+ PPG in the playoffs, and 10+ PPG in the 4th quarter. Plus you couldn't watch a single game and not point out the "it" factor. You can't always describe that in statistics.

And for the record, nobody is criticizing James except for a few trolls. Everyone acknowledges he's the best in the game today by a mile and is a strong playoff performer. We are comparing him to MJ, who is arguably the best player of ANY sport all time. KC Connection somehow takes it as a criticism of LBJ that we're not willing to call him the best player (of all sports) of all time.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

If you don't like the Marino and Montana comparisons, then try Montana and Peyton. You can't explain it. You just see it. He doesn't always look comfortable in big situations.

MJ wouldn't be viewed in a different light. He hit 50% of his game winning shots, scored 35+ PPG in the playoffs, and 10+ PPG in the 4th quarter. Plus you couldn't watch a single game and not point out the "it" factor. You can't always describe that in statistics.

And for the record, nobody is criticizing James except for a few trolls. Everyone acknowledges he's the best in the game today by a mile and is a strong playoff performer. We are comparing him to MJ, who is arguably the best player of ANY sport all time. KC Connection somehow takes it as a criticism of LBJ that we're not willing to call him the best player (of all sports) of all time.

I don't really care about the argument regarding who the best ever is in basketball.

But if you don't think that MJ would be seen differently if those guys had missed those shots, then you just aren't being realistic.

And yes, I get the comparison of the intangibles.

But that is purely subjective.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by milkman

I don't really care about the argument regarding who the best ever is in basketball.

But if you don't think that MJ would be seen differently if those guys had missed those shots, then you just aren't being realistic.

And yes, I get the comparison of the intangibles.

But that is purely subjective.

Nobody would see MJ differently if those guys missed those shots. Is that a serious comment?

I'm pretty sure that in all those cases, if the guy missed the shot, the Bulls would have had another chance to play another game.

Jordan hit 9 game winners. An outrageous 50% (9/18) on game winning shots. He scored 33.4 PPG in the playoffs and 10+ PPG in the 4th quarter. He won 6 championships (even if Kerr, Paxson, or Wennington miss, probably still wins 5 or 6).

And you think his legacy changes because his teammate missed a game winning shot? Really?

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by BeeHo

I found this tidbit from another forum:

Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons (Up to 2011)
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3


I wonder who are in the top 10?


If Lebron can will his team to do the improbable (impossible?) by making a miraculous comeback (zero percent chance in the finals but it's been done in non-final playoff series being down 1-3), then I'm convinced he's in the argument to be on the pathway to GOAT. I'd want consistent 35+pt games and maybe a single 40-50 pt game to beat this super team Spurs. But what I'm asking is near impossible. It would be sick though.

Interesting to ask how dominant Shaq really was despite those stats. Keep in mind that a lot of those points came during "hack a shaq" where you hack the shit out of him and he'd often make only 1 of his 2 free throws.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Nobody would see MJ differently if those guys missed those shots. Is that a serious comment?

I'm pretty sure that in all those cases, if the guy missed the shot, the Bulls would have had another chance to play another game.

Jordan hit 9 game winners. An outrageous 50% (9/18) on game winning shots. He scored 33.4 PPG in the playoffs and 10+ PPG in the 4th quarter. He won 6 championships (even if Kerr, Paxson, or Wennington miss, probably still wins 5 or 6).

And you think his legacy changes because his teammate missed a game winning shot? Really?

Those are crucial game moments that MJ gave up the ball.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by milkman

Those are crucial game moments that MJ gave up the ball.

He took 18 clutch shots in the playoffs in his career many of them difficult. You're really going to talk about 3 where he passed it off to somebody wide open? No, nobody would talk about it and nobody would care. Again, if the guy missed the shot it sets up another game that Jordan would probably win.

You're really reaching here.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

He took 18 clutch shots in the playoffs in his career many of them difficult. You're really going to talk about 3 where he passed it off to somebody wide open? No, nobody would talk about it and nobody would care. Again, if the guy missed the shot it sets up another game that Jordan would probably win.

You're really reaching here.

No, I'm pointing out the stupidity of the critisism of James.

He made good basketball decisions where his teammates let him down.

[Perineum Ripper]

Originally Posted by milkman

Those are crucial game moments that MJ gave up the ball.

Which was the smart and right play because the defense would collapse onto him..he would at least draw a double team and sometimes even 3 defenders..it was smart to give it up because he knew forcing a shot in the middle of 2 or 3 guys is stupid if there will be a wide open teammate for a jump shot

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by milkman

No, I'm pointing out the stupidity of the critisism of James.

He made good basketball decisions where his teammates let him down.

And what are you calling criticism? Aside from a few trolls, most people acknowledge that he's matured into a very good playoff player. The only "criticism" is that he isn't Jordan, which is an unbelievably high bar to set.

[BigCatDaddy]

The biggest difference to me is when Jordan started beginning those playoff runs the goal of the Bulls teams to was to be within 10 points with 5 ****ing minutes to go! MJ would take over the game from there and often they would win. A Lebron team is down 10 with 5 to go and it's over and people start bitching about supporting cast. That's the difference between a great player and the GOAT.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by mac459

Which was the smart and right play because the defense would collapse onto him..he would at least draw a double team and sometimes even 3 defenders..it was smart to give it up because he knew forcing a shot in the middle of 2 or 3 guys is stupid if there will be a wide open teammate for a jump shot

I have no idea why you felt compelled to post this.