Chiefs Coach Versus GM - which is more important? - Page 3

**Rain Man** · 12-21-2008, 07:30 PM

Let's assume that we can avoid hiring two duds, but that we also won't get two Einsteins.

If one of these two hires is "very good" and the other is "mediocre", which would you rather have as the "very good" one?

WilliamTheIrish · 12-21-2008, 08:33 PM

I might have said differently 25 years ago. But today, in this NFL, give me a great GM and he'll find a great coach.

DJ's left nut · 12-21-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

Dimitroff also trade up in the draft to get Sam Baker, and drafted Curtis Lofton.
He also is the guy that brought in Mike Smith.

And I'm sorry, you don't win a SB with average personnel.

You have to have talent to win a Chapionship.

Have they had good coaching to bring out the best of that talent?
Yes.

But they are talented players brought in by the GM, including Plaxico Burris.

You don't win a SB with average coaching either.

You don't win a SB with either of those combinations.

You can, however, compete year in/year out with a great coach and an average GM, you can't do that with the inverse.

DJ's left nut · 12-21-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamTheIrish

I might have said differently 25 years ago. But today, in this NFL, give me a great GM and he'll find a great coach.

Again, ignores the loophole.

The GM in our poll has a mediocre coach, period. Otherwise it's a 'no shit' answer'.

It's cheating, much like wishing for more wishes when the genie pops out of the bottle. It defeats the exercise altogether.

DaWolf · 12-21-2008, 08:36 PM

Well, good GM and bad HC basically give you the Chargers.

However, a head coach is not going to win without talent, so that's a moot point. The guy who brings in the talent is always more important. Even Barry Switzer can win with good talent. It's just going to fall apart a lot quicker...

milkman · 12-21-2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Again, ignores the loophole.

The GM in our poll has a mediocre coach, period. Otherwise it's a 'no shit' answer'.

It's cheating, much like wishing for more wishes when the genie pops out of the bottle. It defeats the exercise altogether.

There is no loophole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Ah. Good point. I said coach, but I was thinking more tactically instead of strategically.

In any given year, I'd rather have the good coach, but I guess in the big picture you'd rather have a GM who can identify and counsel out a mediocre coach. I stand corrected.

DJ's left nut · 12-21-2008, 08:41 PM

But in the NFL, an average GM can bring in good talent.

Again: Parity rules. With the draft rules and salary cap, there's always talent to be had. An average GM can find that talent.

I think Chiefs fans are so traumitized by Carl that they think you either have a great GM or a shitty one. Remember, your average team, in terms of talent, is 15th in the league. That's not a large leap that coaching has to make to get them into 8th or so in record and suddenly you have a playoff team.

I think you really have to recognize what this question is asking you to explore to see where I'm coming from here.

DJ's left nut · 12-21-2008, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

There is no loophole.

Okay, then the pole is stupid, wish for more wishes.

Hell, Rainman just admitted he hadn't explored it from that perspective, so it's clear it wasn't an area he was thinking about when he made the poll and asked the question. It appears to me that its absolutely a loophole and his response affirms it.

In either event, assume it is a loophole and suddenly the question is worth asking

WilliamTheIrish · 12-21-2008, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Again, ignores the loophole.

The GM in our poll has a mediocre coach, period. Otherwise it's a 'no shit' answer'.

It's cheating, much like wishing for more wishes when the genie pops out of the bottle. It defeats the exercise altogether.

Hey, I'm an enigma. A conundrum. A cheater.

**Buehler445** · 12-21-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Again, ignores the loophole.

The GM in our poll has a mediocre coach, period. Otherwise it's a 'no shit' answer'.

It's cheating, much like wishing for more wishes when the genie pops out of the bottle. It defeats the exercise altogether.

If a good GM doesn't bring in a good coach, he is not a good GM.

milkman · 12-21-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Okay, then the pole is stupid, wish for more wishes.

Hell, Rainman just admitted he hadn't explored it from that perspective, so it's clear it wasn't an area he was thinking about when he made the poll and asked the question. It appears to me that its absolutely a loophole and his response affirms it.

In either event, assume it is a loophole and suddenly the question is worth asking

And at the same time he didn't specify that it was a poll that was for a single year.

I answered the question based on the assumption that it was long term.

If he specified for one year, I wouldn't have answered because it then is a stupid question not worth answering.

**Bwana** · 12-21-2008, 08:50 PM

It all starts with a good GM.

milkman · 12-21-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I don't think Dimitroff made any spectacular decisions.

He..........drafted the consensus best QB in the draft. This takes a brilliant personnel mind to manage? I don't believe it does.

And further, to this point, if that were true, then Parcells would have drafted Ryan.

Pennington has played well, but he's, what?, 35 years old?

Parcells had the opportunity to take the best QB in the class, and passed.

DJ's left nut · 12-21-2008, 08:59 PM

And I don't know that Parcells made the wrong decision. Pennington has 3-5 years left (he's 32) as a strong QB, that's an eternity in the NFL. He made an extremely defensible decision, especially when they still want to know what they have in Beck and LT is damn near as important as QB.

Extra Point · 12-21-2008, 09:00 PM

It's a trap question. It assumes that Herm is around next year, and it takes a good GM a year to kick Herm under the bus.

milkman · 12-21-2008, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

And I don't know that Parcells made the wrong decision. Pennington has 3-5 years left (he's 32) as a strong QB, that's an eternity in the NFL. He made an extremely defensible decision, especially when they still want to know what they have in Beck and LT is damn near as important as QB.

I would disagree strongly.

Pennington has had injury issues throughout his career and has marginal arm strength at best.

As I've said elsewhere, if you have the chance to draft a potential future franchise QB, you take him.

View Poll Results: If only one of these will be "very good", which would you prefer?
I'd rather have a Very Good GM and Mediocre head coach.	15	41.67%
I'd rather have a Very Good head coach and Mediocre GM.	12	33.33%
I plan to complain either way.	8	22.22%
It's none of my business.	1	2.78%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

12-21-2008, 07:30 PM
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $2748491 VARSITY	Coach Versus GM - which is more important? Let's assume that we can avoid hiring two duds, but that we also won't get two Einsteins. If one of these two hires is "very good" and the other is "mediocre", which would you rather have as the "very good" one?
Posts: 141,874

12-21-2008, 08:33 PM	#31
WilliamTheIrish Champion Golfer Of The Year Join Date: Aug 2001 Casino cash: $5530607	I might have said differently 25 years ago. But today, in this NFL, give me a great GM and he'll find a great coach.
Posts: 34,724

12-21-2008, 08:36 PM	#34
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	Well, good GM and bad HC basically give you the Chargers. However, a head coach is not going to win without talent, so that's a moot point. The guy who brings in the talent is always more important. Even Barry Switzer can win with good talent. It's just going to fall apart a lot quicker...
Posts: 6,798

12-21-2008, 08:41 PM	#36
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $2439099	But in the NFL, an average GM can bring in good talent. Again: Parity rules. With the draft rules and salary cap, there's always talent to be had. An average GM can find that talent. I think Chiefs fans are so traumitized by Carl that they think you either have a great GM or a shitty one. Remember, your average team, in terms of talent, is 15th in the league. That's not a large leap that coaching has to make to get them into 8th or so in record and suddenly you have a playoff team. I think you really have to recognize what this question is asking you to explore to see where I'm coming from here.
Posts: 60,988

12-21-2008, 08:50 PM	#41
Bwana It's Five O'Clock Somewhere Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Billings, Montana Casino cash: $2138983647	It all starts with a good GM. __________________ Adventure is dangerous....but monotony can kill you.
Posts: 69,830

12-21-2008, 08:59 PM	#43
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $2439099	And I don't know that Parcells made the wrong decision. Pennington has 3-5 years left (he's 32) as a strong QB, that's an eternity in the NFL. He made an extremely defensible decision, especially when they still want to know what they have in Beck and LT is damn near as important as QB.
Posts: 60,988

12-21-2008, 09:00 PM	#44
Extra Point MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Prairie Village, KS Casino cash: $10004900	It's a trap question. It assumes that Herm is around next year, and it takes a good GM a year to kick Herm under the bus. __________________ "Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits." --Satchel Paige
Posts: 7,845