New Pope Is Former Hitler Youth - Page 3

|Zach| · 04-19-2005, 12:06 PM

I thought this was a little strange.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...2667_1,00.html

Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth
Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome
THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him.

Although far short of the requisite two-thirds majority of the 115 votes, this would almost certainly give Ratzinger, 78 yesterday, an early lead in the voting. Liberals have yet to settle on a rival candidate who could come close to his tally.

Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue.

“John Paul was hugely appreciated for what he did for and with the Jewish people,” said Lord Janner, head of the Holocaust Education Trust, who is due to attend ceremonies today to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

“If they were to appoint someone who was on the other side in the war, he would start at a disadvantage, although it wouldn’t mean in the long run he wouldn’t be equally understanding of the concerns of the Jewish world.”

The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times.

In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941.

He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer.

Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp.

Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.

He has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime, any open resistance would have been futile — comments echoed this weekend by his elder brother Georg, a retired priest ordained along with the cardinal in 1951.

“Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger said. “Before we were conscripted, one of our teachers said we should fight and become heroic Nazis and another told us not to worry as only one soldier in a thousand was killed. But neither of us ever used a rifle against the enemy.”

Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”

In 1937 another family a few hundred yards away in Traunstein hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter. SS troops repeatedly searched homes in the area looking for the fugitive and his fellow conspirators.

“When he was betrayed and the Nazis came for him, Braxenthaler shot himself because he knew he couldn’t escape,” said Frieda Meyer, 82, Ratzinger’s neighbour and childhood friend. “Even though they had tortured him in Dachau concentration camp he refused to give up his resistance efforts.”

Despite question marks over Ratzinger’s wartime conduct, the main obstacle to his prospects in the conclave — the assembly of cardinals to elect the new pope — is the conservative stance he has adopted as guardian of Catholic orthodoxy since John Paul named him to head the congregation for the doctrine of the faith in 1981.

His condemnations are legion — of women priests, married priests, dissident theologians and homosexuals, whom he has declared to be suffering from an “objective disorder”.

He upset many Jews with a statement in 1987 that Jewish history and scripture reach fulfilment only in Christ — a position denounced by critics as “theological anti-semitism”. He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”.

Some of his staunchest critics are in Germany. A recent poll in Der Spiegel, the news magazine, showed opponents of a Ratzinger papacy outnumbered supporters by 36% to 29%.

As one western cardinal who was in two minds about him put it: “He would probably be a great pope, but I have no idea how I would explain his election back home.”

One liberal theologian,when asked what he thought of a Ratzinger papacy, was more direct: “It fills me with horror.”

|Zach| · 04-19-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ENDelt260

I camped (and worked on staff) at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation in Osceola, MO. We didn't do OA. I'm a Shaman in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say, though.

ENDelt Witch Doctor...more comfortble with chicken.

**Rain Man** · 04-19-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewChief

Actually, I'm an Eagle Scout as well, and a Vigil in Order of the Arrow.

I'm thinking about joining. Do I have to start as a cub scout, or can I start a little higher since I'm over 40?

whoman69 · 04-19-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Because, seriously, being Hitler Youth in '41 is like your kid joining the Boy Scouts when he's a kid.

Don't confuse "Hitler Youth" with the "Junior SS" or anything. That isn't what it was.

I wouldn't call it that innocent. It was used as a propaganda tool to continue the Nazi mindset into the next generation. I don't hold that against him. In his eyes it was preferable to a work camp.

I do find it interesting that in his own country there is more support against than for the new pope. I neglected to also state there would be no change in doctrine in their view of homosexuality unless its a further step to the right.

NewChief · 04-19-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ENDelt260

I camped (and worked on staff) at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation in Osceola, MO. We didn't do OA. I'm a Shaman in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say, though.

Huh, interesting. I'd never heard of Mic-O-say, so I googled it. Sounds really similar to OA.

**Bob Dole** · 04-19-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewChief

Huh, interesting. I'd never heard of Mic-O-say, so I googled it. Sounds really similar to OA.

How long have you been in that cave?

NewChief · 04-19-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ENDelt260

Here ya go, RainMan.

http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf

Under the interests section be sure to list a few of these. I hear that the BSA really looks highly on them:

Cuddling, nude photography, group sleepovers.

**Rain Man** · 04-19-2005, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ENDelt260

Here ya go, RainMan.

http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf

Well, heck. There's no way I'll EVER be able to come up with three personal references.

**morphius** · 04-19-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badbobby

How long have you been in that cave?

Just wait to see the shock on his face when he learns how the Chiefs got thier name, hehe.

Logical · 04-19-2005, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

Zach, there is no way you are this dense.....

See Amnorix's post.

Not sure why anyone is coming down on Zach, he simply posted a story he found interesting for others to read and comment on. Seems pretty harmless to me.

Amnorix · 04-19-2005, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoman69

I wouldn't call it that innocent. It was used as a propaganda tool to continue the Nazi mindset into the next generation. I don't hold that against him. In his eyes it was preferable to a work camp.

I do find it interesting that in his own country there is more support against than for the new pope. I neglected to also state there would be no change in doctrine in their view of homosexuality unless its a further step to the right.

These two paragraphs are completely disconnected, but that's not a big deal.

There's no room to the right to take a further step, unless he plans to bring back Inquisitions on the matter.

The Hitler Youth wasn't an innocent organization, but its members weren't doing anything that was legally or morally wrong, so I fail to see the issue here. Let's face it, if EVERYTHING else was the same, but the "Hitler Youth" were known by another name, such as "German National Youth", we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Amnorix · 04-19-2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

Not sure why anyone is coming down on Zach, he simply posted a story he found interesting for others to read and comment on. Seems pretty harmless to me.

No problem with Zach posting it as "weird tidbit". But I just want the record clear that you can hold whatever you want against Ratzinger, but it's silly to hold this against him.

InChiefsHeaven · 04-19-2005, 01:21 PM

Quote:

One liberal theologian,when asked what he thought of a Ratzinger papacy, was more direct: “It fills me with horror.”

Then it sounds to me like the picked the right guy!

Mr. Laz · 04-19-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

No problem with Zach posting it as "weird tidbit". But I just want the record clear that you can hold whatever you want against Ratzinger, but it's silly to hold this against him.

and I'll say it again ... you don't know how innocuous it was or wasn't

you weren't there, you don't know what was in the man's heart and mind during that era.

I'll anyone can do is "hope" that he wasn't adopting the Nazi mindset.

**Nzoner** · 04-19-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”.

Yeah,I can see him winning friends and influencing people with that.

Amnorix · 04-19-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz

and I'll say it again ... you don't know how innocuous it was or wasn't

you weren't there, you don't know what was in the man's heart and mind during that era.

I'll anyone can do is "hope" that he wasn't adopting the Nazi mindset.

No, really, what difference does it make if he was starting to become a committed Nazi. He was like 15. It was 60 years ago.

This, to me, is less significant than whether George Bush used drugs while in college.

04-19-2005, 12:06 PM
\|Zach\| For The Glory Of The City Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $5096768	New Pope Is Former Hitler Youth I thought this was a little strange. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...2667_1,00.html Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him. Although far short of the requisite two-thirds majority of the 115 votes, this would almost certainly give Ratzinger, 78 yesterday, an early lead in the voting. Liberals have yet to settle on a rival candidate who could come close to his tally. Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit. Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue. “John Paul was hugely appreciated for what he did for and with the Jewish people,” said Lord Janner, head of the Holocaust Education Trust, who is due to attend ceremonies today to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. “If they were to appoint someone who was on the other side in the war, he would start at a disadvantage, although it wouldn’t mean in the long run he wouldn’t be equally understanding of the concerns of the Jewish world.” The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times. In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941. He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer. Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp. Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp. He has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime, any open resistance would have been futile — comments echoed this weekend by his elder brother Georg, a retired priest ordained along with the cardinal in 1951. “Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger said. “Before we were conscripted, one of our teachers said we should fight and become heroic Nazis and another told us not to worry as only one soldier in a thousand was killed. But neither of us ever used a rifle against the enemy.” Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.” In 1937 another family a few hundred yards away in Traunstein hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter. SS troops repeatedly searched homes in the area looking for the fugitive and his fellow conspirators. “When he was betrayed and the Nazis came for him, Braxenthaler shot himself because he knew he couldn’t escape,” said Frieda Meyer, 82, Ratzinger’s neighbour and childhood friend. “Even though they had tortured him in Dachau concentration camp he refused to give up his resistance efforts.” Despite question marks over Ratzinger’s wartime conduct, the main obstacle to his prospects in the conclave — the assembly of cardinals to elect the new pope — is the conservative stance he has adopted as guardian of Catholic orthodoxy since John Paul named him to head the congregation for the doctrine of the faith in 1981. His condemnations are legion — of women priests, married priests, dissident theologians and homosexuals, whom he has declared to be suffering from an “objective disorder”. He upset many Jews with a statement in 1987 that Jewish history and scripture reach fulfilment only in Christ — a position denounced by critics as “theological anti-semitism”. He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”. Some of his staunchest critics are in Germany. A recent poll in Der Spiegel, the news magazine, showed opponents of a Ratzinger papacy outnumbered supporters by 36% to 29%. As one western cardinal who was in two minds about him put it: “He would probably be a great pope, but I have no idea how I would explain his election back home.” One liberal theologian,when asked what he thought of a Ratzinger papacy, was more direct: “It fills me with horror.”
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