**2014 Official NBA Playoffs Thread**

[-King-]

Round 1:

EAST:

#8 Hawks @ #1 Pacers
#7 Bobcats @ #2 Heat
#6 Nets @ #3 Raptors
#5 Wizards @ #4 Bulls

WEST:
#8 Mavericks @ #1 Spurs
#7 Grizzlies @ #2 Thunder
#6 Warriors @ #3 Clippers
#5 Blazers @ #4 Rockets

[BigCatDaddy]

I also find it comical that these "30 year old over the hill grandpas" are the same age Jordan was when he decided to take 2 years off in play around in the minor leagues before coming back to lead his team to 3 more titles.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Lazy media narratives?

Yes. If you're saying Jeter was a better hitter than ARod in the playoffs, there should be some actual evidence to support that claim. There just isn't. Their overall performance playoff performance level was nearly identical (.838 to .833).

Any baseball fan who is reading your claim that ARod and Jeter are on the same playing field as clutch hitters barfed in their mouths a little bit.

Unfortunately, just like basketball, there are apparently a lot of morons who are baseball fans that don't look into things any deeper than they have to.

I grew up a huge baseball fan. There is no "media narrative." You neglected to point out that ARod had 1 elite playoff run in 2009 (probably on Roids) where he hit .365 with 6 HRs. Take away that playoff series and in 222 at bats, he is a .238 hitter with 7 HRs and 23 RBIs. And if you actually look into his playoff makeup, he has 4 outstanding series and the rest of his appearances in 11 years were disastrously forgettable.

So it's fine to just take away ARod's best postseason (where he led the NYY to a world series) just because it fits the narrative you want to believe in.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by okcchief

JFC

Have you watched the playoffs over the years? How about lazy stat whore narratives? One of these things is not like the other.

I don't see how watching the playoffs (which I do) changes the fact that the actual numbers would suggest differently. And I haven't even gotten into the argument that a small sample size of ABs like that isn't enough to judge anybody on (especially a concept in baseball as vague and unreliable as "clutch").

[tk13]

Yeah you forget how dominant Shaq was. That's why I mentioned that Pacers team. They took the Bulls to the brink, and blew a lead in game 7. The next year they lost the ECF in the Larry Johnson fluke 4-point play series. Then the following year they went to the Finals and had to face Shaq and Kobe. That was a great, great team. They had everything. Reggie, Mark Jackson, Jalen Rose and Travis Best in the backcourt. Mullin, Derrick McKey, the Davis brothers and Rik Smits in the front court. Elite offensive players, elite defensive players, the ability to have both power and finesse down low.

But I've said that's the shame in all the time wasted on this argument. I feel like there are a lot of great players who get lost in the shuffle. Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, etc. Those guys were great, great players... Even Magic and Bird have almost become afterthoughts in a way. Neither was as good defensively as MJ and LeBron but they were both in the same class offensively, if not more well-rounded than MJ and LeBron.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

KC Connection somehow takes it as a criticism of LBJ that we're not willing to call him the best player (of all sports) of all time.

Strawman. I've never said LeBron was a definitively better player overall than MJ (the stats don't even support such a statement). But people certainly go out of their way all the time to affirm the inverse (likely because many are still threatened that MJ's legacy will be damaged by him).

[tk13]

Jeter's stats have never matched his hype... but he's one of those guys who has a lot of big moments. That's why he's thought of the way he is... the Jeffrey Maier HR, the flip to home against the A's, the dive into the stands against the Red Sox, the Mr. November game winning homer in the WS. I think his 3000th hit was a HR. He played very well in most all of the Yankees World Series wins. He's one of those athletes who has come through and delivered multiple iconic moments in key situations. It does affect your legacy because that's what people remember.

It's the same thing with Michael Jordan. The shot on Ehlo, the hand-switch layup against the Lakers, the 6 three pointers against the Blazers, the entire Suns series, the flu game, the shot on Russell to win the last title. On and on. People remember those iconic moments.

[KC_Connection]

Such is the benefit of playing on a lot of elite teams.

[tk13]

I didn't say it was fair, but that's how it works. A-Rod certainly played on a lot of loaded Yankees teams, and only really delivered once. Jeter had all these iconic moments or key plays in tough situations.

That's how these athletes become legends and considered clutch, regardless of stats. Look at Elway with the drive, or Montana to Clark. Same thing in basketball. Larry Bird had the 3-1 comeback in 81 to beat a great Sixers team, the steal against the Pistons, or the epic duel with Dominique Wilkins, and a million game winning shots. Magic had the all-time game 6 performance against the Sixers, the hook shot in 87... on and on. That's what makes sports fun.

[tk13]

Bosh has laid the smack down for tonight.

"We're not going down. We're going to win this game tonight," Bosh said Sunday. "We're going to come. We prepare like we need to do. Plain and simple, we're going to win this game."

Asked if he was guaranteeing a victory, Bosh said: "I don't care about guarantees. We're just going to win the game."

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miam...-antonio-spurs

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by tk13

Jeter's stats have never matched his hype... but he's one of those guys who has a lot of big moments. That's why he's thought of the way he is... the Jeffrey Maier HR, the flip to home against the A's, the dive into the stands against the Red Sox, the Mr. November game winning homer in the WS. I think his 3000th hit was a HR. He played very well in most all of the Yankees World Series wins. He's one of those athletes who has come through and delivered multiple iconic moments in key situations. It does affect your legacy because that's what people remember.

It's the same thing with Michael Jordan. The shot on Ehlo, the hand-switch layup against the Lakers, the 6 three pointers against the Blazers, the entire Suns series, the flu game, the shot on Russell to win the last title. On and on. People remember those iconic moments.

In the playoffs, you face tougher pitching, a brutal travel schedule, and typically players get worse.

Jeter's numbers are better in the playoffs than the regular season. Throughout his career, his #'s across what are considered "high leverage" situations, 2-out situations, after the 7th inning are all equal or better. Clutch is a measure of how good you are in big situations relative to how good you are regularly. It is mind-numbing that KC Connection suggest that Jeter's OPS should be even remotely close to ARod's. OPS is heavily influenced by your ability to hit home runs. Jeter isn't a power hitter and shouldn't suddenly be expected to hit home runs in big situations to be considered clutch. That's not his game.

But it is a major indictment when a guy like ARod is decidely worse in the playoffs hitting than he is in the regular season. Unfortunately, most stats you see don't take that playoff snapshot without the 2009 playoffs where ARod played like the beast he should be. I believe prior to that 2009 season, he was hitting .242 with runners in scoring position. But what I can tell you is this... if we assume an appropriate "decent" postseason series is .280, Jeter did that in 20 of his 33 seasons. If .270 is appropriate for ARod (he never hit below .270 in the regular season until 2013)... ARod has only hit over .270 in 6 of his 16 playoff series. When the numbers are that starkly different, there's a problem.

I don't know how many stats we need to pound in KC Connection's direction. But he's still clinging to this ridiculous premise that Jeter is somehow not clutch based on a ridiculous .OPS number which is a category that ARod should destroy Jeter on through natural talent alone. The fact that theirs are identical is an indictment on ARod, not a criticism of Jeter.

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy

Yep. Lebron is the new Kobe. He'll be the best of a 5-10 year window but not Jordan. He needs to be compared to the next tier of great players because that is where he belongs. That's not a slap in the face to be categorized with Kobe, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, etc.. by any means. Not sure why his ball washers and butt hurt by that.

I think it's laughable though that people call Lebron the best small forward and passing forward of all-time. Which of course is the NBA attempting to sell there product, and forgeting what Bird did in his career.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Originally Posted by tk13

Bosh has laid the smack down for tonight.



http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miam...-antonio-spurs

Asked if he understood what the word "guarantee" means, Bosh said, "I don't care about words and their meanings. We're just going to win the game."

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

But it is a major indictment when a guy like ARod is decidely worse in the playoffs hitting than he is in the regular season. Unfortunately, most stats you see don't take that playoff snapshot without the 2009 playoffs where ARod played like the beast he should be. I believe prior to that 2009 season, he was hitting .242 with runners in scoring position. But what I can tell you is this... if we assume an appropriate "decent" postseason series is .280, Jeter did that in 20 of his 33 seasons. If .270 is appropriate for ARod (he never hit below .270 in the regular season until 2013)... ARod has only hit over .270 in 6 of his 16 playoff series. When the numbers are that starkly different, there's a problem.

Yes, if we removed all the evidence that is contrary to the opinion we're trying to argue, it does become easier to argue it.

I don't know how many stats we need to pound in KC Connection's direction. But he's still clinging to this ridiculous premise that Jeter is somehow not clutch based on a ridiculous .OPS number which is a category that ARod should destroy Jeter on through natural talent alone. The fact that theirs are identical is an indictment on ARod, not a criticism of Jeter.

I didn't argue Jeter wasn't clutch (although I could easily make that argument, especially when you account for the generally poor defense he played his entire career or I could even cite the many people who don't believe "clutch" can be measured in baseball), I said his offensive performance in the postseason was almost identical overall to ARod's. And it was. Which means, according to your narrative, that Jeter being "clutch" was equivalent to ARod playing poorly (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense).

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by tk13

Bosh has laid the smack down for tonight.



http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miam...-antonio-spurs

Bosh also said game 4 was a must win and I didn't even notice him on the court in that game.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Jeter blows