a stack 3-4, cover 2 defense? - Page 4

Mr. Laz · 11:26 PM

the defense we ran tonight was definitely different ... this ain't goonthers defense.

looks like we were running a 3-4 stack defense up front with Tamba Hali and jimmy Wilkerson playing the Javon Kearse role.

i've always thought Hali reminded me more of Kearse than dwight freeney anyway.

it's not a true 3-4 ... we are keeping 4 defensive lineman in the game. It seems like we are just floating one around similar to a 3-4 scheme with and outside linebacker. It allows us to load up one side of the line of scrimmage without blitzing a linebacker and still get a blitz effect.

This looks similar to a greg williams scheme.

Also saw tamba hali line up directly behind a defensive tackle and loop around in a disguised stunt of sorts. That is definitely something i've seen them do with jevon kearse to protect him but still let him use his speed to rush the passer.

gonna be very difficult for a running back to pick up a guy Hali/wilkerson size and block them in the backfield.

nice twist

but we are still playing a cover 2 scheme behind the 3-4 stack. I'm not sure i've seen that before. It's almost like the new england patriot defense blended with the stack washington defense they ran last year.

gonna put a big strain on our middle linebackers though

the MLB seems to have the responsibility of covering the weak side of the lopsided defensive line stunt but still get back to cover the deep middle of the field for the pass.

much better energy level tonight

have to see more of this scheme first ... but at least it looks like our defense is going to try and force the offense to react instead of the other way around this year.

jspchief · 08-27-2006, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo Rising

The blame for the pick has to be on the Head Coach of NC, Bunting. It only helped his recruiting cause to have 2 players in the top 6. Vermeils loyalty caused him to bite. Root against the Tar Heels the next time you have a chance.

Who else would have you taken though at DT? Henederson (in hindsight the best pick) was too tall for the inside and had back problems, Haynesworth had character issues and road Henderson's coat tails as bad as Sims road Peppers. Then there was Bryant who also flopped.

Everyone likes to blame CP but I think a large amount of the blame lies with Lamar Hunt. He tends to not spend enough $. In 2004 we were the worse D and didn't add anyone because he spread Priest and Trents bonuses (from '03) over 2 years. We were still under the cap.

Our Defense can not afford to get too cute. J. Allen still has room to grow at his own DE position. The last thing we need is a Rookie to be standing up and switching sides.

The D needs to first practice tackling, then they can progress to playing a base defense. They are a long way from attempting Gun's "Mad Scientist" schemes.

This is a recipe for disaster. After our opponent gets their first 1st down the shoulder tackles (whiffs) will come out and Tiki Barber will score again.

You're confused. They are talking about Jr Siavii, not Ryan Sims.

Although I can see how the confusion happens. "What a wasted pick" applies to both.

jspchief · 08-27-2006, 07:28 AM

How does this scheme compare to the "Falcon". The way we used Hali reminded me a lot of how we used Derrick Thomas in his later years.

I have to admit though I didn't watch games back then with near as much attention to scheme, so I may be way off base.

Hammock Parties · 08-27-2006, 08:01 AM

WPI has an article about Hali and the Falcon coming.

Mojo Rising · 08-27-2006, 08:07 AM

The Falcon was a copy-cat of the Elephant that Charles Haley started. It ended up putting DT in many bad situations. DT weighed 240 - 250 and had no business as a pseudo D Lineman which is what the Falcon forced him into. If the opponent ran at him we were cooked.

Hali is much heavier. And, the reason he fell to us in the mid - to - late 1 st round is that he isn't fast. I believe he has game speed and like the pick. He just can't be compared a "lighting quick" LB.

In my opinion Hali would be best utilized in a 3 point stance and having discipline drilled into his and Allen's head. If they get up the field and hold containment a bootleg will not get around them.

If they are put into a scheme where they are required to cover their, and the LB behind him's territory (because of Gunthers zone blitz) then they will over-pursue and take themselves out of the play.

Gunther's schemes worked when we had Smith (Allen is no Smith), Sale, Philips, Carter, Ross, etc. They were excellent athletes that could cover 2 spots if needed. We don't have that now.

We need to play a base Defense with some man-man so we can blitz when needed.

Walk before you can run...

milkman · 08-27-2006, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo Rising

The Falcon was a copy-cat of the Elephant that Charles Haley started. It ended up putting DT in many bad situations. DT weighed 240 - 250 and had no business as a pseudo D Lineman which is what the Falcon forced him into. If the opponent ran at him we were cooked.

Hali is much heavier. And, the reason he fell to us in the mid - to - late 1 st round is that he isn't fast. I believe he has game speed and like the pick. He just can't be compared a "lighting quick" LB.

In my opinion Hali would be best utilized in a 3 point stance and having discipline drilled into his and Allen's head. If they get up the field and hold containment a bootleg will not get around them.

If they are put into a scheme where they are required to cover their, and the LB behind him's territory (because of Gunthers zone blitz) then they will over-pursue and take themselves out of the play.

Gunther's schemes worked when we had Smith (Allen is no Smith), Sale, Philips, Carter, Ross, etc. They were excellent athletes that could cover 2 spots if needed. We don't have that now.

We need to play a base Defense with some man-man so we can blitz when needed.

Walk before you can run...

First, this "elephant" wasn't started by Charles Haley.

The stack defense is Hank Stram's creation, and it started with Bobby Bell.

Second, I haven't watched the game yet, but from what I've read during and after the game, this scheme created pressure on the QB without blitzing, and was effective against the run, not only with the first unit, but with the second unit as well..

Third, unless I missed something, these guys played a base 4-3 in the first two preseason games and pretty much had their asses handed to them.

Granted that was with a sorry ass Eric Hicks instead of Hali, but Hicks is also the reason that this scheme wouldn't work.

To summarize, you're talking out of your ass.

**the Talking Can** · 08-27-2006, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

And man on man did I like seeing a nickel package last night that had Law, Surtain and Walls on the field. Good grief. And have Sapp as the blitzing dime. Warfield, McCleon, Sapp and Woods that definitely was not.

yes

htismaqe · 08-27-2006, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Pollard I'm sold on. He and Knight at this point to me is a wash. Because while Bernie'll make some rookie mistakes (both TD's (one called back) were on him), he'll also make plays. He has upside, and he's only going to get better the more he's on the field. Knight will be more consistent, at least early in the season, but he'll also give up big plays because of his speed, or lack thereof, and he's just never going to hit anyone the way Pollard did last night. So in that case, all else being even, I say play the younger, faster, harder-hitting guy and live with his growing pains. We'll be better in December for it.

Page on the other hand I'm not sold on. Not yet. I need to see more. I'm not sure he's an upgrade over Wesley at this point. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe a part of me still remembers Wesley from back around '00, when he was the hard-hitting, athletic young stud.

And man on man did I like seeing a nickel package last night that had Law, Surtain and Walls on the field. Good grief. And have Sapp as the blitzing dime. Warfield, McCleon, Sapp and Woods that definitely was not.

I think this defense is going to be better than we expect. I love the way they're shifting players around, on the line and in the secondary (Surtain and Law both switched sides during the first half, as well as Hali/Allen). It's almost like we're taking the approach of our offense, creating mismatches when we can. I like it, and I think the talent is there to make it effective.

The one TD wasn't Pollard's fault. He was backpedaling into the other zone to attempt to stop it because the other safety wasn't in the right place...

Mojo Rising · 08-27-2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

First, this "elephant" wasn't started by Charles Haley.

The stack defense is Hank Stram's creation, and it started with Bobby Bell.

Second, I haven't watched the game yet, but from what I've read during and after the game, this scheme created pressure on the QB without blitzing, and was effective against the run, not only with the first unit, but with the second unit as well..

Third, unless I missed something, these guys played a base 4-3 in the first two preseason games and pretty much had their asses handed to them.

Granted that was with a sorry ass Eric Hicks instead of Hali, but Hicks is also the reason that this scheme wouldn't work.

To summarize, you're talking out of your ass.

He asked about the Falcon and my guess is that it was more of a copy-cat of the elephant than Bobby Bell (based on timeline.)

I haven't seen last nights game yet either, however, I have learned 1 thing over the last 10 years. Gun's scheme's with poor defenders equals a bad defense. With several All-Pro's it equals a great defense. We have poor defenders at this point.

I am not a fan of the D they put on the field the 1st 2 weeks of PS. The corners were much too soft. I think they could man up on the corners and send a LB if necesarry. At least they could start the play within 7 yards of the LOS when there is only 5 to go.

milkman · 08-27-2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo Rising

He asked about the Falcon and my guess is that it was more of a copy-cat of the elephant than Bobby Bell (based on timeline.)

I haven't seen last nights game yet either, however, I have learned 1 thing over the last 10 years. Gun's scheme's with poor defenders equals a bad defense. With several All-Pro's it equals a great defense. We have poor defenders at this point.

I am not a fan of the D they put on the field the 1st 2 weeks of PS. The corners were much too soft. I think they could man up on the corners and send a LB if necesarry. At least they could start the play within 7 yards of the LOS when there is only 5 to go.

It's the same thing.

Bobby Bell lined everywhere.
He put his hand down as a DE, and moved around in the LB position.

Everything since is just a variation of that.
Even the 3-4 base.

The fact is, with Hali, the LBs and the corners, Gunt does now have the talent to run this scheme.

Mojo Rising · 08-27-2006, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

It's the same thing.

Bobby Bell lined everywhere.
He put his hand down as a DE, and moved around in the LB position.

Everything since is just a variation of that.
Even the 3-4 base.

The fact is, with Hali, the LBs and the corners, Gunt does now have the talent to run this scheme.

I disagree. The CB's are good, but past their PB days. If Hali and DJ develop then they have a chance to get there. Gun made his name on 4+ PB players.

milkman · 08-27-2006, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo Rising

I disagree. The CB's are good, but past their PB days. If Hali and DJ develop then they have a chance to get there. Gun made his name on 4+ PB players.

I'm not a big Ty Law fan, but he's still a good CB, and Surtain is only 30 years old.

They are also not playing in man defense, but a cover 2, hopefully in the Tampa style that has the corners bump receivers at the line.

Kawika, DJ and Fox are all fast athletic LBs that are really suited to play in the cover 2.

Hali, Wilkerson and Allen showed what they are capable of last night.

The only real question is at DT, and the guys there also seemed to step up.

This defense is actuallyone that seems to fit the personnel and their talents.

I am shocked by that very idea, because of my lack of faith in Gunt.

Of course, he has Hermie holding his hand now, so that has to be the difference.

CoMoChief · 08-27-2006, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

We're going to confuse the hell out of Plummer.

Still whenever I hear the name Jake Plummer I think of the video you made of him where it showed him throwing left handed to the tune of Looney Tunes in the background.

Great stuff!!!

CoMoChief · 08-27-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

I'm not a big Ty Law fan, but he's still a good CB, and Surtain is only 30 years old.

They are also not playing in man defense, but a cover 2, hopefully in the Tampa style that has the corners bump receivers at the line.

Kawika, DJ and Fox are all fast athletic LBs that are really suited to play in the cover 2.

Hali, Wilkerson and Allen showed what they are capable of last night.

The only real question is at DT, and the guys there also seemed to step up.

This defense is actuallyone that seems to fit the personnel and their talents.

I am shocked by that very idea, because of my lack of faith in Gunt.

Of course, he has Hermie holding his hand now, so that has to be the difference.

That being said, the Rams are a terrible football team.

milkman · 08-27-2006, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSPimpDude

That being said, the Rams are a terrible football team.

So are the Houston Texans.

kregger · 08-27-2006, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

So are the Houston Texans.

You mean the Houston Donkeys.

08-26-2006, 10:55 PM
Mr. Laz Don't Tease Me Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: KS Casino cash: $11047037	A stack 3-4, cover 2 defense? the defense we ran tonight was definitely different ... this ain't goonthers defense. looks like we were running a 3-4 stack defense up front with Tamba Hali and jimmy Wilkerson playing the Javon Kearse role. i've always thought Hali reminded me more of Kearse than dwight freeney anyway. it's not a true 3-4 ... we are keeping 4 defensive lineman in the game. It seems like we are just floating one around similar to a 3-4 scheme with and outside linebacker. It allows us to load up one side of the line of scrimmage without blitzing a linebacker and still get a blitz effect. This looks similar to a greg williams scheme. Also saw tamba hali line up directly behind a defensive tackle and loop around in a disguised stunt of sorts. That is definitely something i've seen them do with jevon kearse to protect him but still let him use his speed to rush the passer. gonna be very difficult for a running back to pick up a guy Hali/wilkerson size and block them in the backfield. nice twist but we are still playing a cover 2 scheme behind the 3-4 stack. I'm not sure i've seen that before. It's almost like the new england patriot defense blended with the stack washington defense they ran last year. gonna put a big strain on our middle linebackers though the MLB seems to have the responsibility of covering the weak side of the lopsided defensive line stunt but still get back to cover the deep middle of the field for the pass. much better energy level tonight have to see more of this scheme first ... but at least it looks like our defense is going to try and force the offense to react instead of the other way around this year. Last edited by Mr. Laz; 08-26-2006 at 11:26 PM..
Posts: 95,626

08-27-2006, 07:28 AM	#47
jspchief BAMF Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Your Face Casino cash: $9998710	How does this scheme compare to the "Falcon". The way we used Hali reminded me a lot of how we used Derrick Thomas in his later years. I have to admit though I didn't watch games back then with near as much attention to scheme, so I may be way off base. __________________ Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all.
Posts: 27,207

08-27-2006, 08:01 AM	#48
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $4220478	WPI has an article about Hali and the Falcon coming. __________________ Chiefs game films
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08-27-2006, 08:07 AM	#49
Mojo Rising Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: OC Casino cash: $10009560	The Falcon was a copy-cat of the Elephant that Charles Haley started. It ended up putting DT in many bad situations. DT weighed 240 - 250 and had no business as a pseudo D Lineman which is what the Falcon forced him into. If the opponent ran at him we were cooked. Hali is much heavier. And, the reason he fell to us in the mid - to - late 1 st round is that he isn't fast. I believe he has game speed and like the pick. He just can't be compared a "lighting quick" LB. In my opinion Hali would be best utilized in a 3 point stance and having discipline drilled into his and Allen's head. If they get up the field and hold containment a bootleg will not get around them. If they are put into a scheme where they are required to cover their, and the LB behind him's territory (because of Gunthers zone blitz) then they will over-pursue and take themselves out of the play. Gunther's schemes worked when we had Smith (Allen is no Smith), Sale, Philips, Carter, Ross, etc. They were excellent athletes that could cover 2 spots if needed. We don't have that now. We need to play a base Defense with some man-man so we can blitz when needed. Walk before you can run...
Posts: 1,792