Chiefs The Film Room aka formerdb: "Chiefs: Quarterbacks and the Coaching" - Page 4

rico · 10-30-2012, 05:49 PM

http://echointhehead.blogspot.com/20....html?spref=tw

Quarterbacking:

When looking at a QB I strip away the Heisman's, MVP's, Super Bowl's...and just look at how they throw a ball. Natural talent like Peyton Manning is scattered throughout the NFL. There is nothing special about how he throws a football from point A to B...a lot of better balls came out of Jamarcus Russell's arm.

If you just watched Peyton Manning it's is not a pretty site. But there isn't a more efficient player on the move than Peyton Manning. The big key with Manning is he can get to his drops quicker than any player in the NFL even at his size. Meaning he has the ability to throw before a defense can diagnose it's a pass.

Sometimes something as simple as that can turn a rather above average QB into a great one. The elite QB's in the NFL aren't the elite talents in Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning...rather they are the most efficient passers in the NFL. All 4 QB's are versatile enough passers to run the style of offense they run, not based on natural talent rather touch/timing.

If you go out to the yard and toss a football from 10 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards each throw would be different. The mechanics of those throws will be slightly different. The amount of force will be different as well. Scouting a QB is simply identifying how a QB accounts for it with ability and mechanics.

When pressed I often say that Joe Flacco is my favorite QB in the NFL. Flacco can go the furthest downfield without breaking his mechanics. From 30-40 yards Flacco can still manipulate good touch on the football...personally that control at that distance is something I appreciate over any other passer. Every QB breaks mechanics to launch a ball. It's typically where that break happens is what determines functional arm strength to me.

Stanzi:

I don't love the natural talent but I love the technique. His balance/arm efficiency/functional strength/release point all in my opinion are near elite. Stanzi has the tools to be one of the more efficient passers in the league. The issue with Stanzi goes back to that "break" in mechanics when passing.

Stanzi's mind as a QB doesn't match his skill set. Stanzi plays a power style with a efficient skill set. For me I still love the prospect but at this point his style of play will never allow him to tap into what he can actually excel in. As much as I love Stanzi as an intermediate passer, he is too aggressive and often break excellent mechanics in favor of more aggressive reads.

If anyone ask me who I wanted to start for the Chiefs it was Ricky Stanzi. I wasn't certain he was a better QB than Cassel or Quinn, but I was certain he was a more talented passer. Ultimately the amount of "passes" a QB has determines the versatility of the passing game. A team can have Jerry Rice but if the Quarterback can't beat a cover 3 then it doesn't matter...this team is capped on the amount of routes they can call due to the QB.

Daboll/Cassel:

In the preseason I stressed that Cassel looked better because of the passes he was throwing. Stanzi utilized a completely different set of reads. Stanzi's reads had a higher degree of difficulty. To me every completion or attempt isn't equal. How a QB missed the post on a cover 3 is a lot more intriguing than the QB hitting a slant vs. cover 2.

That's the key issue of the season, the reason for the collapse. Daboll and Crennel picked the wrong QB's to run this offense. They picked the guys that were attempting and hitting the easy reads in the preseason over the guy that was missing on the more aggressive reads. It's basic...if you're playbook has a bunch of deep routes, then get the QB that throws those routes.

What's happening is simple. Because we can't threaten deep teams just bracket underneath. It's a simple adjustment that the Chiefs don't have the ability to get teams out of. In my opinion Quinn nor Cassel have that ability. But that shouldn't be what is derailing this team. Long ago Daboll had to figure his player out.

Daboll was applauding Cassel with hitting Baldwin on a fade vs. cover 1...hitting the TE on a skinny post vs. cover 2. Essentially every team has taken those routes away from this offense. It comes as no shock that we aren't having success passing. The timing is not there because Cassel wasn't forced to work on the timing throughout preseason. Felt nervous that we had a coaching staff that lacked vision.

This offenses talents is suited for movement. Albert, Asomoah, Lilja, Allen, Charles, Moeaki are all suited to play in space...with a few of them being among the more athletic players at their positions in the NFL. Players that are suited to play horizontal are being forced to play vertically. Most are making the transition but our Cassel/Quinn don't have the ability to.

What has changed schematically in Kansas City is simple. We went from a team that ran on the perimeter to a team that runs in the interior. We went from a team that threw a bunch of screens, hooks, hitches, slants to one that uses more vertical routes. For the most part every facet is transitioning to the changes outside of the Quarterback.

Final Thought

Stanzi utilizes the reads that this offense is designed to use. Theoretically those vertical routes are supposed to threaten the safety. Mathematically the threat of the pass should account for an additional defender. Depending on the range of the passing game determines the depth of the secondary. Currently the passing game can't remove a defender in the run game.

Because of the lack of the vertical passing attack defenders are flooded in the intermediate zone...hence why so many deflections are being intercepted. The threat of a vertical passing game removes Chargers safety Eric Weddle and the pick on the deflection doesn't happen. Currently because of Quarterback talent this offense is unable to force that adjustment making our intermediate reads a lower percentage.

Daboll has to understand that...instead of waiting for an adjustment from defenses that won't come. He is going to have to adjust if these are his options at QB. I still believe Cassel can serve a purpose, but he can't run this offense. Daboll has to figure out a way to make his QB better or he will handcuff this team to a bad marriage of natural talent and scheme.

Change has to happen...if Daboll doesn't change he has to go...if Cassel doesn't change then the scheme has to...if the scheme doesn't change then the QB has to. The status quo is flawed and is getting in this teams way.

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-30-2012, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper16

Then what are any of us doing here?

What I'm saying is that no one should make a determination of Ricky Stanzi based on his brief evaluation.

I hate the "myth" of Ricky Stanzi. Truly.

**notorious** · 10-30-2012, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

"We"?

So, you think that the coaches, GM and owner are ignoring his amazing play during the minicamps, training camp and daily practices?

Those same coaches, GM, and owner gave us Matt Cassel and Brady Quinn.

I don't trust their judgement, especially at QB.

Stanzi proably sucks, but we might as well find out for sure whether to jettison him or keep him.

**the Talking Can** · 10-30-2012, 09:34 PM

that reads like a chinese dude used google translate to describe a dream he had about ricky stanzi riding a unicorn...

**Easy 6** · 10-30-2012, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

We haven't lead in a single game yet, what could it possibly hurt to put the kid out there and let him make some mistakes and see how he bounces back...it's not like Cassel doesn't turn the ball over in bunches...at least Stanzi would make some plays.

That.

Even after ALL of this, even as it continues to get worse in EVERY possible way, from the GM to the merchandise retailer... they're still going to shove Matt back out there?... in hopes of saving what? another one or two games?

Stanzi looked bad in preseason? so what, he might be forever ruined by being thrown to the wolves in a bad year? so what... if he's a player, he can play and he'll be fine... if not, no big deal, another fifth rounder isnt hard to come by.

Start Stanzi, right now... the only thing worse than that, is NOT doing that.

Ace Gunner · 10-30-2012, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fruit Ninja

lol, Young said between him and VICK! They are both Left handed qb's and they both were runners

okay, but the paragraph is so convoluted that when he starts it with "Steve Young" and ends it with Matt Cassel needs to somehow steal college reps to get going on some level, supposedly a "steve young" level, it just makes the whole damn point a reach.

Mike Vick is never going to be Steve Young because Mike Vick can't play football anywhere near Young's style of play. I hated Young coming up, and it ain't because he's a lefty(I am too) it was because he was too slow through his reads and tucked it and ran all too often. But time showed Steve Young had it in him to become a devastating killer QB -- that SB against the Chargers was brilliant and that season leading to it he was stellar. From there, he was surely HOF.

Mike Vick is not driven to be that guy. No way. Never was, still is not.

Steve Young was a winner, he played hard and did not shy away from challenges. It took Yong a few years before he put his game together the way great QB's put games together -- where they elevate the play of their team consistently and particularly during those games where the other team seems to have everyone's number. That is just not what Mike Vick is.

And that is my point. How can anyone equate anything about the play of Mike V & Matty C with Steve Young? No. That is just way way off. No college time is going to level that playing field. No way.

**Rausch** · 10-30-2012, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lou_Zare

okay, but the paragraph is so convoluted that when he starts it with "Steve Young" and ends it with Matt Cassel needs to somehow steal college reps to get going on some level, supposedly a "steve young" level, it just makes the whole damn point a reach.

Mike Vick is never going to be Steve Young because Mike Vick can't play football anywhere near Young's style of play. I hated Young coming up, and it ain't because he's a lefty(I am too) it was because he was too slow through his reads and tucked it and ran all too often. But time showed Steve Young had it in him to become a devastating killer QB -- that SB against the Chargers was brilliant and that season leading to it he was stellar. From there, he was surely HOF.

Mike Vick is not driven to be that guy. No way. Never was, still is not.

Steve Young was a winner, he played hard and did not shy away from challenges. It took Yong a few years before he put his game together the way great QB's put games together -- where they elevate the play of their team. That is just not what Mike Vick is.

And that is my point. How can anyone equate anything about the play of Mike V & Matty C with Steve Young? No. That is just way way off. No college time is going to level that playing field. No way.

Young was an extremely intelligent guy that looked at the game like a chess match.

Vick is a ****ing moron with the physical gifts of an olympian...

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-30-2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notorious

Those same coaches, GM, and owner gave us Matt Cassel and Brady Quinn.

I don't trust their judgement, especially at QB.

Stanzi proably sucks, but we might as well find out for sure whether to jettison him or keep him.

I don't think it's unfair to conclude that everyone in management at One Arrowhead Drive is currently in survival mode.

That being the case, if anyone felt Stanzi should be on the field (let alone, activated), I think it's safe to assume he'd be out there.

**Dave Lane** · 10-30-2012, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Me, too.

Guaranteed 1-15 and no more Stanzi talk.

Either way it's a win.

Ace Gunner · 10-30-2012, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoover

We are idiots for not seeing what Stanzi can do. This team sucks ass, time to see what we have in the garage.

I would like to see him play, but I would bet the team is not only concerned for their jobs -- eg "we will play the veteran QB because he gives us the best chance to win" but also because two well built veterans have suffered concussions during the last 3 games and well, Rick Stanzi is not built so sturdy and he's going to struggle a bit at first.

I would like to see them sign a veteran center and move Lilja back to LG because JFC, is there no centers available from other pro leagues right now? Yes. There is. And yes, they would be reliable to get the ball in the air during shotgun instead of bowling and skidding it along the 5 yards of grass between them and the damn QB.

Then maybe think about Stanzi playing.

Ace Gunner · 10-30-2012, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

Young was an extremely intelligent guy that looked at the game like a chess match.

Vick is a ****ing moron with the physical gifts of an olympian...

Yes, he really is a smart man.

Silock · 10-30-2012, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lou_Zare

okay, but the paragraph is so convoluted that when he starts it with "Steve Young" and ends it with Matt Cassel needs to somehow steal college reps to get going on some level, supposedly a "steve young" level, it just makes the whole damn point a reach.

Mike Vick is never going to be Steve Young because Mike Vick can't play football anywhere near Young's style of play. I hated Young coming up, and it ain't because he's a lefty(I am too) it was because he was too slow through his reads and tucked it and ran all too often. But time showed Steve Young had it in him to become a devastating killer QB -- that SB against the Chargers was brilliant and that season leading to it he was stellar. From there, he was surely HOF.

Mike Vick is not driven to be that guy. No way. Never was, still is not.

Steve Young was a winner, he played hard and did not shy away from challenges. It took Yong a few years before he put his game together the way great QB's put games together -- where they elevate the play of their team consistently and particularly during those games where the other team seems to have everyone's number. That is just not what Mike Vick is.

And that is my point. How can anyone equate anything about the play of Mike V & Matty C with Steve Young? No. That is just way way off. No college time is going to level that playing field. No way.

You missed the point. He wasn't saying anything to relate Matt Cassel's ability with Steve Young's. He was saying that Matt Cassel needs to be forced to do things differently in order to run this offense successfully and that the coaches aren't forcing him to do that. He isn't getting the reps at what makes this offense successful and is just relying on what he is comfortable with in the easy passes.

Silock · 10-30-2012, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

What I'm saying is that no one should make a determination of Ricky Stanzi based on his brief evaluation.

I hate the "myth" of Ricky Stanzi. Truly.

I didn't get the sense that he was making a final determination on him, just that Stanzi was willing to do more difficult things than the other two and not being rewarded for it.

I think he was saying that Stanzi has more upside than the other two, but no one will ever know because he is never given a chance. The coaches are too stupid to figure out what he is good at and what it really takes to make this offense work.

10-31-2012, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lou_Zare

Stanzi was brain farting his way through 3rd string defenses the entire pre season and his passes were not on target more often than they were it seemed to me. He had poor decisions during every outing and through a few picks, perhaps one every outing.

Most of this is revisionist history. I'm not going to apologize for Stanzi but his play was tons better than what is implied here. Most of his passes WERE on target but his receivers did him no favors at all. Most Stanzi detractors have judged his entire preseason based on a failed 4th down conversion attempt during which he had a defender on him 3 steps into his drop. He scrambled desperately and eventually was tackled and fumbled. Several planeteers questioned why he didn't throw the ball away... despite the fact it was 4th down. Sure, he had a couple of bad passes but he completed 50% of his throws and had 6 drops in <20 attempts. I don't think any QB can save this franchise under the current circumstances but Stanzi is in no way complete garbage like this board would lead us to believe. But I don't blame people here for their frustration. Any player who has proven nothing but is still hyped eventually leads to haters. Rightfully so. It doesn't really matter who is behind center for this team right now. RGIII would look like crap too. But it would be more interesting watching Stanzi lose than it is watching Cassel or Quinn at this point.

**007** · 10-31-2012, 01:23 AM

And it isn't like there is anything to lose going with Stanzi. I'm sure he will be just as bad but what the hell.

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-31-2012, 01:43 AM

Every WR outside of Bowe has sucked ass this year.

Where are the threads and posts about Wylie?

He was a 4th rounder, not a fifth. He's fast, quick and productive in school.

Where are the 5.000 posts about Wylie? WR isn't important?

10-30-2012, 05:49 PM
rico ON CP YOU’RE SOMEBODY’S BITCH! Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Da SEI Casino cash: $4444809	The Film Room aka formerdb: "Chiefs: Quarterbacks and the Coaching" http://echointhehead.blogspot.com/20....html?spref=tw Quarterbacking: When looking at a QB I strip away the Heisman's, MVP's, Super Bowl's...and just look at how they throw a ball. Natural talent like Peyton Manning is scattered throughout the NFL. There is nothing special about how he throws a football from point A to B...a lot of better balls came out of Jamarcus Russell's arm. If you just watched Peyton Manning it's is not a pretty site. But there isn't a more efficient player on the move than Peyton Manning. The big key with Manning is he can get to his drops quicker than any player in the NFL even at his size. Meaning he has the ability to throw before a defense can diagnose it's a pass. Sometimes something as simple as that can turn a rather above average QB into a great one. The elite QB's in the NFL aren't the elite talents in Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning...rather they are the most efficient passers in the NFL. All 4 QB's are versatile enough passers to run the style of offense they run, not based on natural talent rather touch/timing. If you go out to the yard and toss a football from 10 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards each throw would be different. The mechanics of those throws will be slightly different. The amount of force will be different as well. Scouting a QB is simply identifying how a QB accounts for it with ability and mechanics. When pressed I often say that Joe Flacco is my favorite QB in the NFL. Flacco can go the furthest downfield without breaking his mechanics. From 30-40 yards Flacco can still manipulate good touch on the football...personally that control at that distance is something I appreciate over any other passer. Every QB breaks mechanics to launch a ball. It's typically where that break happens is what determines functional arm strength to me. Stanzi: I don't love the natural talent but I love the technique. His balance/arm efficiency/functional strength/release point all in my opinion are near elite. Stanzi has the tools to be one of the more efficient passers in the league. The issue with Stanzi goes back to that "break" in mechanics when passing. Stanzi's mind as a QB doesn't match his skill set. Stanzi plays a power style with a efficient skill set. For me I still love the prospect but at this point his style of play will never allow him to tap into what he can actually excel in. As much as I love Stanzi as an intermediate passer, he is too aggressive and often break excellent mechanics in favor of more aggressive reads. If anyone ask me who I wanted to start for the Chiefs it was Ricky Stanzi. I wasn't certain he was a better QB than Cassel or Quinn, but I was certain he was a more talented passer. Ultimately the amount of "passes" a QB has determines the versatility of the passing game. A team can have Jerry Rice but if the Quarterback can't beat a cover 3 then it doesn't matter...this team is capped on the amount of routes they can call due to the QB. Daboll/Cassel: In the preseason I stressed that Cassel looked better because of the passes he was throwing. Stanzi utilized a completely different set of reads. Stanzi's reads had a higher degree of difficulty. To me every completion or attempt isn't equal. How a QB missed the post on a cover 3 is a lot more intriguing than the QB hitting a slant vs. cover 2. That's the key issue of the season, the reason for the collapse. Daboll and Crennel picked the wrong QB's to run this offense. They picked the guys that were attempting and hitting the easy reads in the preseason over the guy that was missing on the more aggressive reads. It's basic...if you're playbook has a bunch of deep routes, then get the QB that throws those routes. What's happening is simple. Because we can't threaten deep teams just bracket underneath. It's a simple adjustment that the Chiefs don't have the ability to get teams out of. In my opinion Quinn nor Cassel have that ability. But that shouldn't be what is derailing this team. Long ago Daboll had to figure his player out. Daboll was applauding Cassel with hitting Baldwin on a fade vs. cover 1...hitting the TE on a skinny post vs. cover 2. Essentially every team has taken those routes away from this offense. It comes as no shock that we aren't having success passing. The timing is not there because Cassel wasn't forced to work on the timing throughout preseason. Felt nervous that we had a coaching staff that lacked vision. This offenses talents is suited for movement. Albert, Asomoah, Lilja, Allen, Charles, Moeaki are all suited to play in space...with a few of them being among the more athletic players at their positions in the NFL. Players that are suited to play horizontal are being forced to play vertically. Most are making the transition but our Cassel/Quinn don't have the ability to. What has changed schematically in Kansas City is simple. We went from a team that ran on the perimeter to a team that runs in the interior. We went from a team that threw a bunch of screens, hooks, hitches, slants to one that uses more vertical routes. For the most part every facet is transitioning to the changes outside of the Quarterback. Final Thought Stanzi utilizes the reads that this offense is designed to use. Theoretically those vertical routes are supposed to threaten the safety. Mathematically the threat of the pass should account for an additional defender. Depending on the range of the passing game determines the depth of the secondary. Currently the passing game can't remove a defender in the run game. Because of the lack of the vertical passing attack defenders are flooded in the intermediate zone...hence why so many deflections are being intercepted. The threat of a vertical passing game removes Chargers safety Eric Weddle and the pick on the deflection doesn't happen. Currently because of Quarterback talent this offense is unable to force that adjustment making our intermediate reads a lower percentage. Daboll has to understand that...instead of waiting for an adjustment from defenses that won't come. He is going to have to adjust if these are his options at QB. I still believe Cassel can serve a purpose, but he can't run this offense. Daboll has to figure out a way to make his QB better or he will handcuff this team to a bad marriage of natural talent and scheme. Change has to happen...if Daboll doesn't change he has to go...if Cassel doesn't change then the scheme has to...if the scheme doesn't change then the QB has to. The status quo is flawed and is getting in this teams way.
Posts: 13,258

10-30-2012, 09:34 PM	#48
the Talking Can Supporter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: street Casino cash: $10022208	that reads like a chinese dude used google translate to describe a dream he had about ricky stanzi riding a unicorn... __________________ Clark Hunt: "Thank god for the Dominican pool boy"
Posts: 51,585

10-31-2012, 01:23 AM	#59
007 Shaken. Not stirred. Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: London Casino cash: $13920126 VARSITY	And it isn't like there is anything to lose going with Stanzi. I'm sure he will be just as bad but what the hell. __________________ My dear girl, there are some things that just aren’t done. Such as, drinking Dom Perignon ’53 above the temperature of 38 degrees Fahrenheit. That’s just as bad as listening to the Beatles without earmuffs.
Posts: 65,558

10-31-2012, 01:43 AM	#60
DaneMcCloud Supporter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hollywood, CA Casino cash: $10053648	Every WR outside of Bowe has sucked ass this year. Where are the threads and posts about Wylie? He was a 4th rounder, not a fifth. He's fast, quick and productive in school. Where are the 5.000 posts about Wylie? WR isn't important?
Posts: 88,960