Justin Houston, Aldon Smith, Ryan Kerrigan

[Direckshun]

Let's chat about these passrushers, in which there is some remote possibility that one of these three will make it to our pick.

Which ones do you like, which ones don't you like. And why.

I haven't seen too much Mizzou on tape just yet, so I'll let someone else comment on Smith.

Houston definitely has that wow factor, but at this point he's kind of a one-trick pony. He's a speed demon around the edge and he stacks up all his stats on bad teams. I haven't seen any sacks where he swims in, spins, or bullrushes. He just bolts around the corner -- which is intriguing as an OLB (I'd say, of the three, he's the best fit there), but that athleticism is something you can't teach. Moves, you can teach.

Kerrigan I'm not sold on yet, but again, I never seem to like passrushers in the draft. He has a little of that Tyson Jackson feel to him -- like he can be good, but he'll never be a game changer. He doesn't have that explosion in him that the other two seem to have.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by JimBaker488

Really ? Both needing to add weight to frame to handle rushing plays, both rated as very athletic, both coming out early. Both projected as 3-4 OLBs at the next level, though they played 4-3 DE in college. And atleast Maybin had multiple good seasons while Smith bascially has only one really successful college season. I see a lot of similarities.

That is completely incorrect.

Smith was the BXII Freshman of the Year his first year and 1st team all conference his second year on a bum wheel. Smith also has the frame to add 20-30 pounds. He's also a really good run defender, something that could never be said for Maybin.


Aaron Maybin had 12 tackles his freshman year. 12. How does that qualify as a really good year? He played at about 225-230 in college and had to jack some serious gas just to get around 250 for the combine. He doesn't have the same kind of frame to add on weight like Smith does, who is already north of that weight.

Go back and watch the Iowa bowl game. That was the healthiest Smith was since he hurt his leg in the SDSU game. He's the only DL that gets consistent pressure, and if any of his LBs had been able to maintain gap discipline, the Iowa running game would have been far less successful. He was in the backfield on multiple occasions, particularly in the second half, when rushing from a 3 technique position. That's something Maybin could never do.

If you want to compare Smith to someone, then you could compare him to Jason Pierre Paul. They are the same kind of athlete, Smith is just a much better football player.

[El Jefe]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

That is completely incorrect.

Smith was the BXII Freshman of the Year his first year and 1st team all conference his second year on a bum wheel. Smith also has the frame to add 20-30 pounds. He's also a really good run defender, something that could never be said for Maybin.


Aaron Maybin had 12 tackles his freshman year. 12. How does that qualify as a really good year? He played at about 225-230 in college and had to jack some serious gas just to get around 250 for the combine. He doesn't have the same kind of frame to add on weight like Smith does, who is already north of that weight.

Go back and watch the Iowa bowl game. That was the healthiest Smith was since he hurt his leg in the SDSU game. He's the only DL that gets consistent pressure, and if any of his LBs had been able to maintain gap discipline, the Iowa running game would have been far less successful. He was in the backfield on multiple occasions, particularly in the second half, when rushing from a 3 technique position. That's something Maybin could never do.

If you want to compare Smith to someone, then you could compare him to Jason Pierre Paul. They are the same kind of athlete, Smith is just a much better football player.

Good post.

[JimBaker488]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

That is completely incorrect.

Smith was the BXII Freshman of the Year his first year and 1st team all conference his second year on a bum wheel. Smith also has the frame to add 20-30 pounds. He's also a really good run defender, something that could never be said for Maybin.


Aaron Maybin had 12 tackles his freshman year. 12. How does that qualify as a really good year? He played at about 225-230 in college and had to jack some serious gas just to get around 250 for the combine. He doesn't have the same kind of frame to add on weight like Smith does, who is already north of that weight.

Go back and watch the Iowa bowl game. That was the healthiest Smith was since he hurt his leg in the SDSU game. He's the only DL that gets consistent pressure, and if any of his LBs had been able to maintain gap discipline, the Iowa running game would have been far less successful. He was in the backfield on multiple occasions, particularly in the second half, when rushing from a 3 technique position. That's something Maybin could never do.

If you want to compare Smith to someone, then you could compare him to Jason Pierre Paul. They are the same kind of athlete, Smith is just a much better football player.

You know more about Smith than I do, or you maybe I should say you have stronger convictions about him than I do, either way. I just have an impression based upon some basic info, hope you're right about his talent ? Do you see his potential best realized at DE or at LB in the 3-4 ?
I'm looking forward to next weeks Combine to get a good look-see at the physical specimen and his athletic ability.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by JimBaker488

You know more about Smith than I do, or you maybe I should say you have stronger convictions about him than I do, either way. I just have an impression based upon some basic info, hope you're right about his talent ? Do you see his potential best realized at DE or at LB in the 3-4 ?
I'm looking forward to next weeks Combine to get a good look-see at the physical specimen and his athletic ability.

He's probably best suited to be a 4-3 DE in a Tampa 2 system, but he can play in any scheme.

If Smith had stayed for his Jr. year, he'd be a lock for a top 5 pick in 2012. He wasn't nearly as heralded as DaQuan Bowers, but he was a much more consistent producer in a far harder league.

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by JimBaker488

You know more about Smith than I do, or you maybe I should say you have stronger convictions about him than I do, either way. I just have an impression based upon some basic info, hope you're right about his talent ? Do you see his potential best realized at DE or at LB in the 3-4 ?
I'm looking forward to next weeks Combine to get a good look-see at the physical specimen and his athletic ability.

Detroit would be the perfect spot for Smith IMO.

[bowener]

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

Detroit would be the perfect spot for Smith IMO.

Oh, jesus, that would be disgusting. Suh taking up 2 blockers on every snap would ensure that Smith is singled on almost all plays... they would terrorize people.

[JimBaker488]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

He's probably best suited to be a 4-3 DE in a Tampa 2 system, but he can play in any scheme.

If Smith had stayed for his Jr. year, he'd be a lock for a top 5 pick in 2012. He wasn't nearly as heralded as DaQuan Bowers, but he was a much more consistent producer in a far harder league.

I'm a native Missourian from the KC area, but I've been down here in Houston for a long time now so I'm also a fan of the Texans along with the Chiefs. Anyway the Texans are going to be joining the Chiefs and about half of the league as they transition this year to the 3-4, so I'm most interested in Smiths ability to succeed, no make that excel as a 3-4 outside backer, and be a fit
with Houston or KC ?
This is off subject, but since I'm talking 3-4 vs 4-3 how's Glenn Dorsey doing ? Obviously he's a natural 4-3 3-tech DT, so I wondered how he's contributing in the Chiefs 3-4 ? Dorsey was the best defensive player in the
best conference (SEC) in not one but his last 2 years in college, but I know he's fallen a 'bit short of expectations in KC ?

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by JimBaker488

I'm a native Missourian from the KC area, but I've been down here in Houston for a long time now so I'm also a fan of the Texans along with the Chiefs. Anyway the Texans are going to be joining the Chiefs and about half of the league as they transition this year to the 3-4, so I'm most interested in Smiths ability to succeed, no make that excel as a 3-4 outside backer, and be a fit
with Houston or KC ?
This is off subject, but since I'm talking 3-4 vs 4-3 how's Glenn Dorsey doing ? Obviously he's a natural 4-3 3-tech DT, so I wondered how he's contributing in the Chiefs 3-4 ? Dorsey was the best defensive player in the
best conference (SEC) in not one but his last 2 years in college, but I know he's fallen a 'bit short of expectations in KC ?

Dorsey improved tremendously this past year.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

ILB what the hell are you smoking. Ayers is a 3-4 OLB. Ayers fits what you are looking for as a 3-4 Sam Backer. Lot of you guys are looking for Hali types, which we have need the Vrabel role filled.

Exactly.

I know some 3-4 defenses will build around 2 pass-rushing OLBs, but not the system KC uses. If we end up with 2 pure pass-rushers, we'll get beat up pertty badly in the run game and in the short passing game because of how we use our safeties and ILBs.

Ayers is an ideal fit to replace Vrabel. If we needed to replace Hali, a guy like Smith would be fantastic, but that's not the role we're looking for. We need an OLB that operates well in coverage, in open space and against the run to complement Hali. We don't need (or want) just another Hali. That just wouldn't work very well.

Ayers can do all those things and actually provide an occasional threat as a pass rusher, at least enough to be a credible threat in the eyes of opposing OCs.

If we go OLB, Ayers is the absolute best case scenario for our defense, IMO.

[JimBaker488]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Exactly.

I know some 3-4 defenses will build around 2 pass-rushing OLBs, but not the system KC uses. If we end up with 2 pure pass-rushers, we'll get beat up pertty badly in the run game and in the short passing game because of how we use our safeties and ILBs.

Ayers is an ideal fit to replace Vrabel. If we needed to replace Hali, a guy like Smith would be fantastic, but that's not the role we're looking for. We need an OLB that operates well in coverage, in open space and against the run to complement Hali. We don't need (or want) just another Hali. That just wouldn't work very well.

Ayers can do all those things and actually provide an occasional threat as a pass rusher, at least enough to be a credible threat in the eyes of opposing OCs.

If we go OLB, Ayers is the absolute best case scenario for our defense, IMO.

So like in the 4-3, you want your strong-side OLB to be more effective vs the run and in coverage compared to the weakside backer, but you're also saying his pass-rushing skills are not of primary importance like they would be for the weakside backer ?
And tell me about KCs gap-responsibilty for its down-linemen in their 3-4, i.e., do they have one or two gap responsibility ?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

KC is a two gap defense.

As far as the responsibilities, the more pass rushers you have, the better. Look at what Pitt and Green bay did in the SB (yes, they are different D's). Because they had multiple OLBs who could get after the QB, not only could they run a base set (3-4), but they were able to use their OLBs as DEs in a nickel package (4-2-5). They were able to get a rush and have the extra DBs on the field to cover 11 packages (3 WR sets).

[nicfre2006]

Hey guys...first post in here.

Personally, I really like Justin Houston. Living down south and being married to a family of Georgia fans, I have had an opportunity to watch Houston closely. I really think he has the potential to be a very good all around 3-4 outside linebacker. Keep in mind that both Aldon Smith and Ryan Kerrigan have experience as college 4-3 defensive ends, while Houston played 4-3 defensive end and 3-4 outside linebacker (last year), so he has some familiarity with the basic assignments and responsibilities. While he is known for his pass rushing, I do think he has an underrated all-around game. He has sideline-to-sideline range and very good athleticism to track the play and get through the trash. I do think he could improve in disengaging from blocks while moving toward the ball carrier.

Aldon Smith arguably has one of the highest ceilings of the 4-3 defensive ends that also project to 3-4 outside linebacker. His is very raw and has relied on his explosiveness and superior athleticism to make plays. He doesn't have the understanding of technique yet largely due to his inexperience, so there is some caution that he may never reach his substantial potential if he doesn't make the necessary adjustments and grasp the mental aspects of the position. As you guys mentioned, I don't think Smith will be on the board when we select at #21 because in the end, I think he could fit in either the 4-3 or 3-4 scheme. Personally, I think he could possibly be a better fit as a pass rushing 4-3 defensive end provided a team has some patience with him and can use him in pass rushing situations.

Ryan Kerrigan is an intriguing prospect. He doesn't jump out at you with his athleticism like Smith, but he has an excellent motor and has a good awareness of how the play is unfolding around him. Some might call me crazy, but I could see him fitting in as a 3-4 outside linebacker in the scheme that the Chiefs and Patriots employ. He reminds me of a more athletically gifted Mike Vrabel. I wouldn't be shocked if the Patriots grabbed him with their higher first round pick - if he is still on the board. I am very interested in seeing how he does at the combine in the agility drills as that will go a long way in showing if he has the versatility to play in either scheme. He did show up at the Senior Bowl at around 255 lbs., and that shows me that he is trying to showcase his abilities to play in either scheme.

An option I wanted to throw out there outside of the first round is Arizona defensive end Brooks Reed. He showed very good explosiveness and athleticism at the Senior Bowl and actually has some very good workout numbers coming to Arizona out of high school. Like Kerrigan, he is known for his motor and tenacity along with a pretty good repertoire of pass rush moves for a college player. If he performs well at the combine in agility drills, I could see him moving into solid second round territory. I think he is a name to keep an eye on should the Chiefs go in a different direction in the first round.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by nicfre2006

Hey guys...first post in here.

Personally, I really like Justin Houston. Living down south and being married to a family of Georgia fans, I have had an opportunity to watch Houston closely. I really think he has the potential to be a very good all around 3-4 outside linebacker. Keep in mind that both Aldon Smith and Ryan Kerrigan have experience as college 4-3 defensive ends, while Houston played 4-3 defensive end and 3-4 outside linebacker (last year), so he has some familiarity with the basic assignments and responsibilities. While he is known for his pass rushing, I do think he has an underrated all-around game. He has sideline-to-sideline range and very good athleticism to track the play and get through the trash. I do think he could improve in disengaging from blocks while moving toward the ball carrier.

Aldon Smith arguably has one of the highest ceilings of the 4-3 defensive ends that also project to 3-4 outside linebacker. His is very raw and has relied on his explosiveness and superior athleticism to make plays. He doesn't have the understanding of technique yet largely due to his inexperience, so there is some caution that he may never reach his substantial potential if he doesn't make the necessary adjustments and grasp the mental aspects of the position. As you guys mentioned, I don't think Smith will be on the board when we select at #21 because in the end, I think he could fit in either the 4-3 or 3-4 scheme. Personally, I think he could possibly be a better fit as a pass rushing 4-3 defensive end provided a team has some patience with him and can use him in pass rushing situations.

Ryan Kerrigan is an intriguing prospect. He doesn't jump out at you with his athleticism like Smith, but he has an excellent motor and has a good awareness of how the play is unfolding around him. Some might call me crazy, but I could see him fitting in as a 3-4 outside linebacker in the scheme that the Chiefs and Patriots employ. He reminds me of a more athletically gifted Mike Vrabel. I wouldn't be shocked if the Patriots grabbed him with their higher first round pick - if he is still on the board. I am very interested in seeing how he does at the combine in the agility drills as that will go a long way in showing if he has the versatility to play in either scheme. He did show up at the Senior Bowl at around 255 lbs., and that shows me that he is trying to showcase his abilities to play in either scheme.

An option I wanted to throw out there outside of the first round is Arizona defensive end Brooks Reed. He showed very good explosiveness and athleticism at the Senior Bowl and actually has some very good workout numbers coming to Arizona out of high school. Like Kerrigan, he is known for his motor and tenacity along with a pretty good repertoire of pass rush moves for a college player. If he performs well at the combine in agility drills, I could see him moving into solid second round territory. I think he is a name to keep an eye on should the Chiefs go in a different direction in the first round.

Good first post.

Who ya got at NT, WR and along the O-Line?

[nicfre2006]

Originally Posted by milkman

Good first post.

Who ya got at NT, WR and along the O-Line?

Thanks.
The answer to those positions for me is really a combination of the draft and free agency. As far as nose tackle goes, personally, I like Phil Taylor. I think when it is all said and done he will have the talent and potential to warrant a first round pick. The key will be if he can show teams that he has matured and is ready to take his opportunity in the NFL seriously. Whenever a player has some character concerns (however small they may seem to most), it always is an issue to look into because you never know how a player will react when he has an NFL contract and NFL notoriety. If we added Phil Taylor in the first round (preferrably after trading down a couple of spots) I wouldn't have a problem at all because it would mean that Pioli and company would feel comfortable enough that Taylor has turned the corner so-to-speak and put his off-field issues behind him to commit first round money to him.

As for wide receiver, I really like the idea of adding a veteran opposite Dwayne Bowe. In the Baltimore game it was pretty obvious to me that our receivers could get absolutely no separation from the coverage - and the defensive scheme could roll to Bowe in coverage. Breaston has experience with Todd Haley, and although we obviously don't know what type of working relationship they had, the familiarity could be a positive for the Chiefs if Breaston hits the market. If he checks out medically, I think he would be an excellent free agent addition. His experience would be a definite plus and his consistency would be much needed - he just knows how to get open. I wouldn't expect Breaston to explode statistically, but his ability to get open over the middle and in the intermediate passing game could take some pressure off of Bowe and combine with Tony Meoaki to give us another reliable target. The next target in upgrading the passing game would be to find a deep threat to further open things up in the middle of the field. I would look at finding a middle to late round developmental wide receiver to try and fill this role.

On the offensive line, I would look to find a long term solution in the draft at the center position. I don't think Ryan Kalil of the Panthers or Lyle Sendlein of the Cardinals will hit the free agent market. A player I like in round 3 (round 4 might be too late by the time we pick) is Tim Barnes from Missouri. From what I have heard he is a hard worker and has a good reputation as a solid teammate. This is just from what I have read in various places.

I would like to see us re-sign Barry Richardson at right tackle, but to bring in some competition. A player I like to fill the role of competition/depth at right tackle is Tyler Polumbus. An undrafted rookie free agent originally signed by the Broncos, he has experience in the zone blocking scheme during his time with the Broncos. I have inquired about Polumbus to Seahawks fans and while they admit he isn't necessarily someone you want starting a full season at right tackle, he does bring value for the depth he provides.

Another possible mid-level free agent I would really like to see the Chiefs show interest in is Miami Dolphin defensive end Tony McDaniel. They have a log jam at the defensive end position, but when McDaniel has played, he has been solid. He is noted on their NFL.com roster as a nose tackle and when I asked some Miami fans, they mentioned he has rotated at both defensive end and nose tackle when needed due to injury, although they admitted what I suspected - he is much better suited to play defensive end. Because of the situation in Miami with several players vying for playing time, I do think McDaniel will be the odd man out, but not because they don't want him, but because combined with the depth at that position, they also have to consider retaining nose tackle Paul Soliai. I really would like to see the Chiefs bring in someone to compete with Tyson Jackson. I am not a big fan of Jackson, but having someone on the roster who will compete with him could light a fire. And there is one thing that I will definitely credit Pioli and Haley with - if a player performs in practice and works hard, he will have a shot to get playing time and start regardless of who they are. Another name I like as a possibility at defensive end is Ray McDonald. I prefer McDaniel, but either way, I would like someone to add to the rotation, provide depth, and help motivate Jackson to step it up.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread.....sorry.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by nicfre2006

Thanks.
The answer to those positions for me is really a combination of the draft and free agency. As far as nose tackle goes, personally, I like Phil Taylor. I think when it is all said and done he will have the talent and potential to warrant a first round pick. The key will be if he can show teams that he has matured and is ready to take his opportunity in the NFL seriously. Whenever a player has some character concerns (however small they may seem to most), it always is an issue to look into because you never know how a player will react when he has an NFL contract and NFL notoriety. If we added Phil Taylor in the first round (preferrably after trading down a couple of spots) I wouldn't have a problem at all because it would mean that Pioli and company would feel comfortable enough that Taylor has turned the corner so-to-speak and put his off-field issues behind him to commit first round money to him.

As for wide receiver, I really like the idea of adding a veteran opposite Dwayne Bowe. In the Baltimore game it was pretty obvious to me that our receivers could get absolutely no separation from the coverage - and the defensive scheme could roll to Bowe in coverage. Breaston has experience with Todd Haley, and although we obviously don't know what type of working relationship they had, the familiarity could be a positive for the Chiefs if Breaston hits the market. If he checks out medically, I think he would be an excellent free agent addition. His experience would be a definite plus and his consistency would be much needed - he just knows how to get open. I wouldn't expect Breaston to explode statistically, but his ability to get open over the middle and in the intermediate passing game could take some pressure off of Bowe and combine with Tony Meoaki to give us another reliable target. The next target in upgrading the passing game would be to find a deep threat to further open things up in the middle of the field. I would look at finding a middle to late round developmental wide receiver to try and fill this role.

On the offensive line, I would look to find a long term solution in the draft at the center position. I don't think Ryan Kalil of the Panthers or Lyle Sendlein of the Cardinals will hit the free agent market. A player I like in round 3 (round 4 might be too late by the time we pick) is Tim Barnes from Missouri. From what I have heard he is a hard worker and has a good reputation as a solid teammate. This is just from what I have read in various places.

I would like to see us re-sign Barry Richardson at right tackle, but to bring in some competition. A player I like to fill the role of competition/depth at right tackle is Tyler Polumbus. An undrafted rookie free agent originally signed by the Broncos, he has experience in the zone blocking scheme during his time with the Broncos. I have inquired about Polumbus to Seahawks fans and while they admit he isn't necessarily someone you want starting a full season at right tackle, he does bring value for the depth he provides.

Another possible mid-level free agent I would really like to see the Chiefs show interest in is Miami Dolphin defensive end Tony McDaniel. They have a log jam at the defensive end position, but when McDaniel has played, he has been solid. He is noted on their NFL.com roster as a nose tackle and when I asked some Miami fans, they mentioned he has rotated at both defensive end and nose tackle when needed due to injury, although they admitted what I suspected - he is much better suited to play defensive end. Because of the situation in Miami with several players vying for playing time, I do think McDaniel will be the odd man out, but not because they don't want him, but because combined with the depth at that position, they also have to consider retaining nose tackle Paul Soliai. I really would like to see the Chiefs bring in someone to compete with Tyson Jackson. I am not a big fan of Jackson, but having someone on the roster who will compete with him could light a fire. And there is one thing that I will definitely credit Pioli and Haley with - if a player performs in practice and works hard, he will have a shot to get playing time and start regardless of who they are. Another name I like as a possibility at defensive end is Ray McDonald. I prefer McDaniel, but either way, I would like someone to add to the rotation, provide depth, and help motivate Jackson to step it up.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread.....sorry.

I think it's not only possible, but probable, that Kalil hits the free agent market.

The Panthers won't use the tag on him, and there's nothing to indicate they, or he, have shwon any urgency to get a deal done.

I also think the Dolphins will be losing Soliai.

Those would be my primary targets in free agency, along with a WR like James Jones who can stretch the field.

You've got some good thoughts here, and I certainly wouldn't bitch if we took the path you've laid.

Don't worry about hijacking the thread.
Good football posts are always welcome.