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Old 03-29-2023, 08:39 AM  
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***Official 2023 STL Cardinals Thread ***
2023 thread. Walker makes the roster. I'll update the rosters and opening day lineup when its official

2023 Opening Day Lineup
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2022 Opening Day roster.
Spoiler!

For the new Cardinal fans that joined the Planet since last year, here are some of the historical threads going back to 2006.
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Old 05-23-2023, 07:34 PM   #616
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Then again, the state of prospects in baseball right now is pretty weak, IMO. Sal Frelick shouldn't be a top 25 guy yet there he is. Marco Luciano DEFINITELY shouldn't be and yet he's top 20. Even Marcelo Mayer, a top 5 guy is...fine. I mean he's 20 years old at A+ so he's a little underaged but you'd think he'd be in AA by now if he's a star in themaking. And I'm still not sure there's a standout tool in there anywhere.

It's just not a great crop of minor leaguers at the moment, IMO. I mean once you get past Diego Cartaya, I'm not sure I see many real blue-chippers left unless you're willing to really do some deep diving into the low minors and man, those are just dart throws.
Luciano isn't universal top 20 anymore. His stock has plummeted. Baseball America has him down to No. 33 on its latest update and Fangraphs' Ryan Langenhagen has him on the backend of his top 100 the last I checked.
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Old 05-24-2023, 06:47 AM   #617
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He'll still require a shit ton going back to Anaheim, but it won't be as much as Soto for a few reasons:

1. As you mentioned, Soto was under contract for multiple seasons at the time of his trade.
2. If San Diego kept Soto up until to FA, SD would get a pick if he rejected a qualifying offer.



Why do you dislike Nootbar? His defense and ability to get on base are both valuable skills that you'd want in an OF.

And getting Soto would've done absolutely nothing due to how terrible the rotation is.
Because you sell now on that one....trust me
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Old 05-24-2023, 08:32 AM   #618
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I dont think 2.

1 for a starter though.

I think if the Cardinals were to do it the centerpiece would be Gorman vs Walker.

Who would you choose? Do you think Gorman spontaneously figured out how to reduced his strikeouts by 6%+ or is this just a hot streak like O'Neill experienced for a year? If you think he's legit then I would probably go with Walker in the deal. Walker for all the praise of power he gets just doesn't show it in game. He's not fairing any better in AAA and then you are left with having to figure out where the **** he plays on the MLB team. He's all time terrible in the outfield, so is he a DH because of Arenado? His value to the MLB team just isnt there.
Walker is going to come down to swing plane. If he doesn't start adding loft, he's Ke'Bryan Hayes without defensive value. Maybe if you're lucky he becomes Yelich (but not the MVP year Yelich where he had a 13 degree LA vs every other season of his career being at/below half that).

Walk absolutely has to get the ball in the air. He's just not getting enough out of his raw power and so that's going to impact how teams pitch to him and thus his OBP as well.

Then again, he's so damn young that there's plenty of time. And Gorman was a baby when he made his debut as well and it took a season or so to firm things up.

Short answer is that I don't give up either for a rental. Not with this ownership group unwilling to go into the market and win.
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Old 05-24-2023, 08:33 AM   #619
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Luciano isn't universal top 20 anymore. His stock has plummeted. Baseball America has him down to No. 33 on its latest update and Fangraphs' Ryan Langenhagen has him on the backend of his top 100 the last I checked.
'Bout time.

He hasn't done anything in 3-4 years to demonstrate that he's even a real top 100 guy, let alone top 20.

He's not developed a bit for SF.
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Old 05-24-2023, 08:59 AM   #620
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Because you sell now on that one....trust me
There's nothing about what Nootbar's currently doing that seems to be unsustainable.

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Short answer is that I don't give up either for a rental. Not with this ownership group unwilling to go into the market and win.
Which is why I think trading TON or DeJong for a rental (though he's going to outproduce his contract but holy shit he's so ****ing inconsistent offensively). I like TON, but I can't see there being room for him in the OF if they insist on keeping Carlson along with Burleson/Yepez (which one of them should be moved as well for a reliever).

Offense is finally producing as we expected but the rotation is still a dumpster fire. Bullpen is worse than I envisioned, though.

I want Winn up so bad, but until he shows he can hit minor league pitching consistently, there's no need to rush him.

Complete aside, I think Edman might be my favorite player on the team.
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Old 05-24-2023, 05:03 PM   #621
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They pitched Liberatore out of the bullpen but keep trotting Matz out there to get completely shelled.
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Old 05-24-2023, 06:52 PM   #622
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They pitched Liberatore out of the bullpen but keep trotting Matz out there to get completely shelled.
There is absolutely no baseball reason to continue pitching Matz over Liberatore. Dumbshit Mo doesn’t want to look bad, or even worse because of Matz overpay.
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Old 05-24-2023, 09:26 PM   #623
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There's nothing about what Nootbar's currently doing that seems to be unsustainable.



Which is why I think trading TON or DeJong for a rental (though he's going to outproduce his contract but holy shit he's so ****ing inconsistent offensively). I like TON, but I can't see there being room for him in the OF if they insist on keeping Carlson along with Burleson/Yepez (which one of them should be moved as well for a reliever).

Offense is finally producing as we expected but the rotation is still a dumpster fire. Bullpen is worse than I envisioned, though.

I want Winn up so bad, but until he shows he can hit minor league pitching consistently, there's no need to rush him.

Complete aside, I think Edman might be my favorite player on the team.
"we'll see"
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Old 05-25-2023, 05:07 PM   #624
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There is no way we are getting a quality starting pitcher without trading either Gorman, Walker and or Winn, correct?

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Old 05-25-2023, 05:43 PM   #625
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There is no way we are getting a quality starting pitcher without trading either Gorman, Walker and or Winn, correct?
We all know thewy aren't trading for a quality starter, it's just not in this club's plans. If they were going to trade any of them it should be Walker. He stinks in the outfield and has no clear path to the big club if he's not in the outfield.
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Old 05-25-2023, 07:09 PM   #626
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There is no way we are getting a quality starting pitcher without trading either Gorman, Walker and or Winn, correct?
Gorman is untouchable. Deal you know who
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Old 05-26-2023, 08:33 AM   #627
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We all know thewy aren't trading for a quality starter, it's just not in this club's plans. If they were going to trade any of them it should be Walker. He stinks in the outfield and has no clear path to the big club if he's not in the outfield.
I'd really prefer them not make any trades.

John Mozeliak's ability to scout his own players is so goddamn bad that he's essentially a sitting duck in these conversations. He has no earthly idea who can actually play at this level so when he's making deals, other teams are just picking his pocket.

Fortunately he finally appears to realize this so he's simply unwilling to deal.

If we're hell-bent on keeping this pile of shit, doing nothing is the best we can do.

The odds of us getting anyone notably better than Graceffo or McGreevy are pretty long unless someone like the Giants falls out of it and are willing to deal Cobb. But ultimately, the Cardinals have more reasons to be sellers than the Giants do. When you start to look for teams that may sell veteran SPs, most of those teams are BETTER situated than STL is.
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Old 05-29-2023, 07:50 AM   #628
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I'd really prefer them not make any trades.

John Mozeliak's ability to scout his own players is so goddamn bad that he's essentially a sitting duck in these conversations. He has no earthly idea who can actually play at this level so when he's making deals, other teams are just picking his pocket.
Its really weird that the Arenado and Goldy trades have been his best. But.... thats not the whole story. We got the better part of those deals because of the incompeteance of the other teams, not Mo's GM expertise.
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Old 05-29-2023, 05:53 PM   #629
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Its really weird that the Arenado and Goldy trades have been his best. But.... thats not the whole story. We got the better part of those deals because of the incompeteance of the other teams, not Mo's GM expertise.
Even if you are a terrible poker player sometimes you find two fish even bigger than you. Nevertheless, you're still prey to everyone else in the pond.
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Old 05-29-2023, 05:59 PM   #630
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FWIW, Goldschmidt's bat is showing serious signs of slowing down this year. They need to have a conversation about dealing him while he still has some value.
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