These "parents" should face criminal charges

[tiptap]

Physicians often petition the courts to intervene on the part of minors. Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses and other religious groups are often compelled under community standard of care concerns to submit minors for treatment that go against religious practice.

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by tiptap

Physicians often petition the courts to intervene on the part of minors. Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses and other religious groups are often compelled under community standard of care concerns to submit minors for treatment that go against religious practice.

Some of those get overturned too.

There was a case with the Amish who believe in apprenticeship by age 15 or so instead of enrollment in school...and the state even went after them for that. It was overturned later.

You can get a religious exemption ( and in some states a philosophical exemption) from vaccinations....depends on the state.

[BucEyedPea]

The thing that I see that could hurt them is that they said they also had nothing against doctors and even used on before.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

And where do we draw the line?

At the line of laws prohibiting Child Neglect and Endangerment.

If the parents had allowed the child to starve because they belong to a faith that teaches them the sick can be fed spiritually by prayer, they would be just as culpable. I know their faith doesn't teach that, but it seems a very reasonable comparison to make, IMO.

It's pretty simple. We already have laws in this country which restrict a certain amount of "freedom of religion". As I mentioned before in this thread, a Rastifarian isn't free to blaze up on religious grounds, nor is a "Christian Identity" member allowed to enslave another human being. However, both those faiths condone those particular (illegal) actions.

There's really no difference here, AFAICS.

The fact those religions, like the one the parents of the dead child practice are fringe (or cults, if you prefer) is irrelevant under the 1'st amendment.

Do the parents have the right to ignore medical care in favor of prayer? Absolutely.

Do they have the right to deny their child medical care in favor of prayer? As the child isn't of the age of consent, IMO, no. I'm pleased most state laws seem to agree with this position.

Sorry, but the fact that "The parents heart was in the right place" doesn't excuse ignoring medical treatment for their sick child.

JMO.

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

I'm pleased most state laws seem to agree with this position.

Sorry, but the fact that "The parents heart was in the right place" doesn't excuse ignoring medical treatment for their sick child.

JMO.

I never said if "the parents heart is in the right place." You changed my words.

Most state laws apparently don't agree still according to this link. Even Canada grants the freedom to chose faith healing. There are still many more states with religious exemptions in child abuse laws including in Wisconsin.

In 1974, the U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare first required states to have clauses in their child abuse and neglect legislation that permits exemptions on religious grounds. If a state refused, they would not receive federal child abuse protection grants. By 1999, 40 (one source says 41) states had complied. Parents who choose prayer in place of medical care for a sick or injured child cannot be prosecuted in those jurisdictions. This federal regulation no longer exists, but most the state laws remain on the books. In only 4 states have these laws been overturned by the courts on constitutional grounds: HI, MA, MD & SD as the other two.

Committees in the Oregon legislature heard testimony in 1999-MAR for and against House bills 2494 and 2596. These would require all parents to obtain medical help for their seriously sick or injured children. The bills have strong backing from both parties, law enforcement, physicians, social workers and child advocates. "...there was limited testimony from Christian Scientists who warned that eliminating the so-called spiritual defense from Oregon's homicide statutes and other areas of the law would unfairly impose upon their religious rights." 3 The House later endorsed a compromise faith healing bill that allows defendants to claim faith healing as a defense.

In 6 states (AR, DE, IA, OH, OR, and WV) additional laws are on the books that prevent charges of criminal homicide or manslaughter being laid against parents and guardians.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I never said if "the parents heart is in the right place." You changed my words.

I intended to use that phrase to (correctly) summarize Tom's position. Though I used it several times throughout the thread, my apologies for using it in the response directed towards you without that clarification. I don't know your position on the subject, so I wouldn't presume to attribute one to you.

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

Most state laws apparently don't agree still according to this link. Even Canada grants the freedom to chose faith healing. There are still many more states with religious exemptions in child abuse laws including in Wisconsin.

It's truly a pity religion overrides common sense as it applies to the well being of children in those states. JMO.

Originally Posted by Jenson71

You have gone to such great lengths to defends these parents. Freedom of religion, none of our business, demanding the stages of diabetic ketoacidosis, claiming I condone partial birth abortions, saying I'm too young and ignorant to understand this all, etc.

I wonder if he'd have the same attitude if they were Scientologists or some other fringe religion/cult that believed medical care was a violation of their faith.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

I wonder if he'd have the same attitude if they were Scientologists or some other fringe religion/cult that believed medical care was a violation of their faith.

Those groups that you refer to have their own rules and are accepted by you. Why is it that you have to make distinction between one group and another?

I live my life without trying to interfer with yours. How many times have I attempted to "get you saved" in the name of my religion?

You feel that my stance is a global situation that all religious beliefs are correct. You have been wrong, you are wrong and you will be wrong.

Carry on with your wild exaggerations, it suits the type of person you are.

[milkman]

I'm going to stop wearing seatbelts, cause I know that God is stronger that any made made safety device.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Those groups that you refer to have their own rules and are accepted by you. Why is it that you have to make distinction between one group and another?

Wrong again. What a surprise.

Anyone willing to allow a child to die by refusing medical attention is in no way "accepted" by me as anything other than belonging to a whackjob/fringe cult, or lacking religious motivation, a complete moron.

Originally Posted by a1na2

You feel that my stance is a global situation that all religious beliefs are correct. You have been wrong, you are wrong and you will be wrong.

No, I'm quite aware you believe your religion is the only "correct" one. So do others. Big whoop.

However, as you've been defending the parents based on freedom of religion, I should point out that in the eyes of the Constitution of the United States (which grants that freedom), all religions are equally "correct". As we're talking about laws, that's what matters. Not your personal beliefs. Try to stick with the conversation.

Originally Posted by a1na2

Carry on with your wild exaggerations, it suits the type of person you are.

Awww...Sandyvag?

Originally Posted by - ahem, shut your mouth -

I maintain that we cannot force our perceptions of right and wrong into this case as we are not living in their shoes.

- ahem, shut your mouth -, recently announced Moral Relativist.

Originally Posted by milkman

And it is cases like these that will lead to that decision.

It is a shame laws like that are needed.

I'd think treating a sick child with more than prayer/meditation would be a common sense proposition.

Much like parents who would neglect their child in another way, the state has to intervene on occasion. It's tragic, but often necessary for the well-being of the child.

[Coach]

Even myself, I feel that they should be charged, but the Wisconsin Criminal Code simply states that:

"(6) TREATMENT THROUGH PRAYER.

A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing permitted under s. 48.981 (3) © 4. or 448.03 (6) in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."

[Coach]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Ever had the flu? Ever had an intestinal virus? Those symptoms are not only present with diabetes.

You know better than that.

Hello? A month of of puking, not eating or drinking anything, and that condition getting worse as each passing day, there IS something wrong, and going to see a doctor might be a smart idea.

The problem is, how the hell will you know that you have diabetes or a flu/intestinal virus or even AIDS without even going to a doctor? You just can't "Oh ok, I just got a flu" only to find out that you die off from a diabetes that went untreated.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Coach

Hello? A month of of puking, not eating or drinking anything, and that condition getting worse as each passing day, there IS something wrong, and going to see a doctor might be a smart idea.

The problem is, how the hell will you know that you have diabetes or a flu/intestinal virus or even AIDS without even going to a doctor? You just can't "Oh ok, I just got a flu" only to find out that you die off from a diabetes that went untreated.

It's was the decision of the parents. Do you have kids? What do you do if your kid gets sick? What happens if they get sick for extended periods and nothing comes of it? Nobody knows the history of the story other than what was on the internet and that is a very short story,.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by a1na2

It's was the decision of the parents. Do you have kids? What do you do if your kid gets sick? What happens if they get sick for extended periods and nothing comes of it? Nobody knows the history of the story other than what was on the internet and that is a very short story,.

This has got to be the dumbest post of all time.

The parents have a responsibility to protect their children. They don't get a fucking free pass just because they happen to believe in "God".

In case you hadn't noticed, this is the 21st century. It's not 100 AD. Advances in medicine are made every single day and ANY parent who would willfully exclude and prevent their children from proper medical care should be brought up on charges of child endangerment to say the least.

Faith in God doesn't supercede the caring of another human being, especially when that human being is your 11 year old daughter.

I can't even fathom how you can even muster any type of defense towards theses indefensible people, Tom. Un-fucking-believable.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

This has got to be the dumbest post of all time.

The parents have a responsibility to protect their children. They don't get a fucking free pass just because they happen to believe in "God".

In case you hadn't noticed, this is the 21st century. It's not 100 AD. Advances in medicine are made every single day and ANY parent who would willfully exclude and prevent their children from proper medical care should be brought up on charges of child endangerment to say the least.

Faith in God doesn't supercede the caring of another human being, especially when that human being is your 11 year old daughter.

I can't even fathom how you can even muster any type of defense towards theses indefensible people, Tom. Un-fucking-believable.

What I find appalling is that you have basically told these people that they didn't love their kid or do what ever was within their belief to help that kid. You are looking in from the outside and therefore cannot know what was in their head or in their heart.

This is not a simple case of neglect as you wish it was. The parents are caring parents, just because they do not fit your expectation does not diminish that fact. My guess would be that you have never had faith in God or anything else other than your own smugness.

What I've noticed is that you, and others like you, feel the need to intrude where you do not belong. As was said many times by me and others, it is a shame that that girl died because the parents had faith in their beliefs. There is no law that was broken in this situation. Parents treated a sick child to the best of their ability without depending on someone else other than their God and their Faith. You can't handle the fact that people believe in their creator so much that they could take what you consider a risk with the life of their child.

Have you ever put a kid in your car without a seatbelt? If you have you are more guilty of neglect than this family is, not to mention that you have actually broken a law. These people did what they felt was right based on their religious belief. You cannot force your personal will on anyone in this case.

As for your attempt to insult and call me names, well good for you, does it make you feel llike a big man? I've got to tell you, I've been there and done that and all you are doing is admitting that you do not have an answer and are striking out at anyone that doesn't like your particular take on the situation.

Let the case go to court and you will find out that they are not criminally liable for believing in God nor are they going to be prosecuted for not going to a doctor because they could not identify a sickness that could have been any one of a number of minor but experated health problems.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by a1na2

What I find appalling is that you have basically told these people that they didn't love their kid or do what ever was within their belief to help that kid. You are looking in from the outside and therefore cannot know what was in their head or in their heart.

This is not a simple case of neglect as you wish it was. The parents are caring parents, just because they do not fit your expectation does not diminish that fact. My guess would be that you have never had faith in God or anything else other than your own smugness.

What I've noticed is that you, and others like you, feel the need to intrude where you do not belong. As was said many times by me and others, it is a shame that that girl died because the parents had faith in their beliefs. There is no law that was broken in this situation. Parents treated a sick child to the best of their ability without depending on someone else other than their God and their Faith. You can't handle the fact that people believe in their creator so much that they could take what you consider a risk with the life of their child.

Have you ever put a kid in your car without a seatbelt? If you have you are more guilty of neglect than this family is, not to mention that you have actually broken a law. These people did what they felt was right based on their religious belief. You cannot force your personal will on anyone in this case.

As for your attempt to insult and call me names, well good for you, does it make you feel llike a big man? I've got to tell you, I've been there and done that and all you are doing is admitting that you do not have an answer and are striking out at anyone that doesn't like your particular take on the situation.

Let the case go to court and you will find out that they are not criminally liable for believing in God nor are they going to be prosecuted for not going to a doctor because they could not identify a sickness that could have been any one of a number of minor but experated health problems.

First off, I've NEVER put a child in a car without a seatbelt.

That being said, you're a fucking moron. Boo-hoo. No, it doesn't make me "feel like a big man" because in EVERY sense, I AM A BIGGER MAN THAN YOU.

The belief that "God" will somehow heal a sick child is outright lunacy. LUNACY. Without modern medicine, there would be about 5 BILLION less people on this planet. 5 BILLION. Do you think that "God" doesn't want them here because of man-made medicine and advances in science?

Again, how you can defend the actions of this sick and demented family is well beyond the ability for me to comprehend.

It's obvious (and has been obvious for years, whether you post as Tom Ca$h, Believer, or whatever) that you're a kook, nutjob, whacko. And I am truly sorry for anyone outside of this forum that knows you and has to put up with your ridiculous, superstitious drivel.