My theory on why we are bad against the bootlege: hint it is the DTs - Page 5

Logical · 08-12-2006, 11:14 PM

That is right because we get no push up the middle from the DTs the DEs have to crash. Proper technique is to rush straight for about 2 yards then crash. If we do that the QB will get all the time in the world and the bootleg won't even be an issue because we will have no pressure at all.

JMHO

jspchief · 08-13-2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logical

That is not what I said, I said there inability to get push meant the only way to pressure the QB is to crash the DEs right away making us more vulnerable to the bootleg because they are not playing rush contain like DE should.

You seem to think this is all about an ineffective pass rush. That ignores the fact that they are running the boot off of play action. The D-lineman can't just rush the passer, because that would require them to ignore the run blocking scheme, which would result in us getting gashed by the running game.

On these plays, the DTs can't just get after the QB. This isn't a pass play where the QB breaks out under pressure, it's not a scramble, it's a play-action. The linemen have to follow the blocking in case the hand-off is real. By the time they realize it's a boot, the entire line is going the wrong direction, but they have to, to cover the running plays.

The only thing that should be done different is the DE needs to recognize that he's on the backside of the play (so basically taken out of the play if it's a run). Since he's taken out of the running plays, he needs to be less agreessive, keeping in mind that the QB may still be holding the ball.

It has nothing to do with defensive tackles. It's all about the backside DE, LB, Safety, and CB. All of those guys have to have the discipline to not chase the action across the field. The reason it's so difficult is because it's in every players mind that they need to flow to the ball.

This is why I said I didn't think you've seen the game. You seem to not realize that it's a play-action play.

Lonewolf Ed · 08-13-2006, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

We're bad against the bootleg due to a lack of discipline and ability to recognize the play...

It's the same strategy that my rottweiler falls for. I have her toy ball in my right hand, and act like I throw it across the room with my left. But, it's a squeaky ball, and when I squeeze it, she instantly looks back at me, so maybe if they put those squeaky things in the footballs, maybe Hicks wouldn't fall for the bootleg every time. Hey, if my rott can make adjustments during the play...

htismaqe · 08-13-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyperliteZO6

In the video on kcchiefs.com, Herm Edward repeatedly said that the DEs playing weren't the right one.

Meaning Hicks. He isn't the starter. Hali is.

Exactly.

I basically said the solution is to replace Hicks and we've already done that.

ChiefsCountry · 08-13-2006, 02:12 PM

My high school coach was a darn good Defensive coach. His #1 rule for DE was simple - you make sure to block down on the tackle/tight end and keep your outside free. Then you just slow play anything that comes your way to make sure your help is coming. You dont have to make the sack which is nice, but that is what the offense wants you to do. They want the end to commit, you keep the end just going down the line with the qb hands up stringing it hopefully to the sideline.

Reerun_KC · 08-13-2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

The comforting thing was that no receivers were getting open off the play action.

If Denver wants to run Plummer 10 times a game, we'll kill him.

You think?

Geesh Carr ran 4 times this game and was never touched?

Our defense hasnt killed anybody in 8 years! I wouldnt be to worried if I was Jake Plummer....

Mojo Rising · 08-13-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyperliteZO6

In the video on kcchiefs.com, Herm Edward repeatedly said that the DEs playing weren't the right one.

Meaning Hicks. He isn't the starter. Hali is.

Many of the CP scouting reports from RF say that Hali is VERY susceptible to the play action fake. This problem might not go away. Hali converted from a DT so his experience on the edge is somewhat limited.

This issue is going to come down to Gun. He needs to be more disciplined in his schemes. The main threat is Denver and I would rather have Plummer in the pocket with a little more time than rolling out with no pressure. He will make mistakes.

The issue is that we do not put enough pressure with the front 4.

Notice how NE and Pitt (and others) don't have trouble with the roll-out.

Moooo · 08-13-2006, 04:08 PM

Both bite, but at least Hali has the speed to maybe make up for it a bit more.

Moooo

GoHuge · 08-13-2006, 04:38 PM

What's really sad is that after what...four five years, two defensive schemes, and coordinators where still talking about the ONE play that continually kicks our ass. Have that be the one play that doesn't beat us. Try defending just the boot, hell nothing else has worked. Maybe Thursday night they can stick Saivii out there in the flat. He could just stand there and take away half the QB's running lane.

htismaqe · 08-13-2006, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoHuge39

What's really sad is that after what...four five years, two defensive schemes, and coordinators where still talking about the ONE play that continually kicks our ass. Have that be the one play that doesn't beat us. Try defending just the boot, hell nothing else has worked. Maybe Thursday night they can stick Saivii out there in the flat. He could just stand there and take away half the QB's running lane.

Five years, 3 schemes, 2 defensive coordinators...

ONE DEFENSIVE END.

Eric Hicks is the problem.

Halfcan · 08-13-2006, 05:10 PM

They were getting burned by the boot when Hicks was on the sideline-by 3 different QB's.

beer bacon · 08-13-2006, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halfcan

They were getting burned by the boot when Hicks was on the sideline-by 3 different QB's.

Not really. Mitchell and Burton were actually playing the bootleg right. The problem was guys like Perkins were giving their receiver on that side of the field 5+ yard cushions.

Hammock Parties · 08-13-2006, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Five years, 3 schemes, 2 defensive coordinators...

ONE DEFENSIVE END.

Eric Hicks is the problem.

I certainly hope you are right. If Hali comes in and they are still booting us to death, I am going to scream.

beer bacon · 08-13-2006, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

I certainly hope you are right. If Hali comes in and they are still booting us to death, I am going to scream.

Hali at least has some speed to recover if he gets sucked in. Carr was about twice as fast as Hicks. Allen was beating Hicks over to Carr even though he was coming from the far side of the field.

Logical · 08-13-2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jspchief

You seem to think this is all about an ineffective pass rush. That ignores the fact that they are running the boot off of play action. The D-lineman can't just rush the passer, because that would require them to ignore the run blocking scheme, which would result in us getting gashed by the running game.

On these plays, the DTs can't just get after the QB. This isn't a pass play where the QB breaks out under pressure, it's not a scramble, it's a play-action. The linemen have to follow the blocking in case the hand-off is real. By the time they realize it's a boot, the entire line is going the wrong direction, but they have to, to cover the running plays.

The only thing that should be done different is the DE needs to recognize that he's on the backside of the play (so basically taken out of the play if it's a run). Since he's taken out of the running plays, he needs to be less agreessive, keeping in mind that the QB may still be holding the ball.

It has nothing to do with defensive tackles. It's all about the backside DE, LB, Safety, and CB. All of those guys have to have the discipline to not chase the action across the field. The reason it's so difficult is because it's in every players mind that they need to flow to the ball.

This is why I said I didn't think you've seen the game. You seem to not realize that it's a play-action play.

3 out of 4 the QB was well outside the DE before he even made a partial fake, the only one running at that point was him.

htismaqe · 08-13-2006, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beer bacon

Not really. Mitchell and Burton were actually playing the bootleg right. The problem was guys like Perkins were giving their receiver on that side of the field 5+ yard cushions.

Exactly.

Late in the game, you'll notice that the bootleg WORKED but it was a 15-yard pass instead of QB scramble for a 1st down.

That's because the boot side LB and/or CB wasn't doing their job.

With the 1st stringers, we had Carr running down the sideline because DJ and Law were doing their job but Hicks wasn't...

08-12-2006, 11:14 PM
Logical Screw U if U can't take a joke Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	My theory on why we are bad against the bootlege: hint it is the DTs That is right because we get no push up the middle from the DTs the DEs have to crash. Proper technique is to rush straight for about 2 yards then crash. If we do that the QB will get all the time in the world and the bootleg won't even be an issue because we will have no pressure at all. JMHO
Posts: 31,579

08-13-2006, 02:12 PM	#64
ChiefsCountry The Insider Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Lake of the Ozarks Casino cash: $2058752	My high school coach was a darn good Defensive coach. His #1 rule for DE was simple - you make sure to block down on the tackle/tight end and keep your outside free. Then you just slow play anything that comes your way to make sure your help is coming. You dont have to make the sack which is nice, but that is what the offense wants you to do. They want the end to commit, you keep the end just going down the line with the qb hands up stringing it hopefully to the sideline.
Posts: 49,745

08-13-2006, 04:08 PM	#67
Moooo Seeking Enlightenment... Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Springfield Casino cash: $10004900	Both bite, but at least Hali has the speed to maybe make up for it a bit more. Moooo
Posts: 3,405

08-13-2006, 04:38 PM	#68
GoHuge The Truth Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Overland Park Casino cash: $10006072	What's really sad is that after what...four five years, two defensive schemes, and coordinators where still talking about the ONE play that continually kicks our ass. Have that be the one play that doesn't beat us. Try defending just the boot, hell nothing else has worked. Maybe Thursday night they can stick Saivii out there in the flat. He could just stand there and take away half the QB's running lane.
Posts: 3,991

08-13-2006, 05:10 PM	#70
Halfcan In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2005 Casino cash: $7327995	They were getting burned by the boot when Hicks was on the sideline-by 3 different QB's.
Posts: 43,200