Sizing up the DT's - Page 5

Mecca · 01-22-2008, 08:16 PM

January 22, 2008

If you have ever watched the National Geographic Channel, you would know that the grizzly bear is a fearsome creature. When the grizzly bear stands on its hind legs, you know you are in trouble but don’t try to run because the grizzly bear is violently quick, running at an alarming 35 miles per hour.

In the 2008 draft, there are two defensive tackles that resemble grizzly bears. Louisiana State’s Glenn Dorsey and Southern Cal’s Sedrick Ellis are two of the most feared DTs to come out in the same year since 1994 when Dan Wilkinson and Bryant Young both went within the first seven selections of the NFL Draft.

One on One

When we break down the tape, both Dorsey and Ellis are fierce linemen with more physical tools than any highly regarded defensive tackle since Tommie Harris in 2004. We won’t get a confirmed height and weight for Glenn Dorsey until the NFL Combine, but he is reportedly 6’2”, 303 lbs. At the Senior Bowl, Sedrick Ellis sized in at 6’0”, 308 lbs.

LSU’s Glenn Dorsey recorded 7 sacks, 12.5 tackles for a loss, and 69 total tackles as a senior in 2007. He also forced 1 fumble, hurried the quarterback 3 times, and broke up 3 passes. Dorsey may have the ideal frame for a defensive tackle but his quickness is similar to a defensive end’s. He does well as a pass rusher and usually was double teamed in 2007. Despite playing hurt most of 2007, Dorsey managed to change the momentum of games, especially against South Carolina. Dorsey’s arm length doesn’t wow scouts but the ability to dominate in one-on-one situations and swallow any gap around him makes up for what he lacks physically.

The Trojans have had a hidden gem in Sedrick Ellis for some time but he didn’t begin to garnish national attention until his senior year. In 2007, Ellis filled up his stat sheet with 8.5 sacks, 12.5 tackles for a loss and 58 total tackles. He also had 1 quarterback hurry and 7 passes broken up. Ellis isn’t as big height-wise as scouts like, but his extraterrestrial strength and speed makes him a highly regarded prospect. He is very instinctive and leads with a very quick first step. Watching Ellis is like watching a fundamental video on how to shed blocks. He possesses sound techniques and has top-notch intangibles. Like Dorsey, Ellis has had injury problems, breaking his ankle in 2003 and injuring his left knee in 2006. When it comes to disrupting the fluidity on offense for opponents, there is not one prospect in this draft that can do that like Sedrick Ellis.

Natural Habitat

Unlike Ellis, Glenn Dorsey would be better suited for just the 4-3 defensive scheme. As you can see, Ellis could play in both the 3-4 and 4-3. Dorsey is solid in shedding blockers but isn’t the nose tackle prospect Haloti Ngata was a couple of years’ back. Meanwhile, Sedrick Ellis is a hog at both positions, relinquishing the power that the center and guards may have on him and dominating the trenches.

While you may be confused and start to wonder, how is Dorsey more highly regarded than Ellis? He simply isn’t. As you read this, there are scouts and pro personnel breaking down film trying to decipher who is better suited for what and who has shown more weakness than the other. At the end of the day, it may be a push. Dorsey has a quicker first step and may use his hands better than Ellis but Ellis is quicker to dominate a double-team than Dorsey. Both DTs have played through injuries during their time in school and both have anchored a BCS defense.

Conclusion

If there were any fair comparison’s to current NFL DTs, I would put Glenn Dorsey in the Kevin Williams category and place Sedrick Ellis in the Albert Haynesworth category. In all honesty though, there are no fair comparisons. Both have the upside as the aforementioned Pro Bowler’s. Both have the talent and value to award them with bank-breaking rookie contracts. The only difference between the two is that depending on defensive scheme, one will get drafted ahead of the other.

Don’t look for the Miami Dolphins to draft Glenn Dorsey if they put in place a 3-4 scheme. Instead, look for them to address another need or grab a defensive end. On the other hand, Dorsey would fit in well with the St. Louis Rams (to replace La’Roi Glover). Sedrick Ellis meanwhile would be a great fit for the Miami Dolphins but his stock is not quite that up that high yet. Ellis plays with a Warren Sapp-like mean streak and could fit in well with Oakland. Regardless of this speculation, both Dorsey and Ellis will be top 8 eight selections come April.

So who is the better prospect? Flip a coin -- you can’t be wrong with heads or tails. This is the perfect win-win scenario for a franchise picking early in the draft that needs to address the middle of their defensive line.

Deberg_1990 · 01-22-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

DT is soooo not a major need. We have time/money invested in two young guys that played a fair amount of time as rookies, you want to dismiss that time already, because they didn't play like warren sapp? Additionally, Boone is a good DT and we got decent depth to go along with the rookies in Reed and Edwards.

no, DT is not a major need...
IMO

No team should ever dismiss a potential playermaker/superstar. Never.

**dirk digler** · 01-22-2008, 09:59 PM

Thanks for the article Mecca.

IMHO if Jake Long is there for the Chiefs when they pick it is a no brainer you take him. If not take Ellis or whoever the BPA is.

IMHO there really shouldn't be much discussion about this.

BigChiefFan · 01-22-2008, 09:59 PM

I definitely agree that Ellis or Dorsey will be better VALUE in the 1st round, if one or both should drop to us-preferably Ellis. Jake Long looks to be the real deal, but there is no denying the DTs will fall off dramatically after Ellis and Dorsey are off the board.

This draft is deep for O-line-lucky for us.

crazycoffey · 01-22-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

No team should ever dismiss a potential playermaker/superstar. Never.

that's kinda my point too, though.... Jake Long could be just as much the potential superstar as Ellis or Dorsey.

Mecca · 01-22-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

DT is soooo not a major need. We have time/money invested in two young guys that played a fair amount of time as rookies, you want to dismiss that time already, because they didn't play like warren sapp? Additionally, Boone is a good DT and we got decent depth to go along with the rookies in Reed and Edwards.

no, DT is not a major need...
IMO

It's an absolute need.......

I'll explain why real fast...Boone is over 30, and while doing a nice job in a perfect world he's a depth player like the Bears used him as.

Ron Edwards, James Reed, those guys are not good, 3 of your DT's shouldn't include Edwards, Reed and Boone they're all the same thing rotational depth guys.

Tank Tyler will still be given time you know 2 DT's play not one...Turk McBride is to much of a tweener to ever be a good starting DT, he looks like a full on rotation player at this point.

None of those DT's should ever be a reason to stop you from making a pick...not ever. They are all to this point depth guys, even if you like Tylers potential Ellis in no way affects him because the rest of those guys will all be moved on from in a few years unless McBride ends up as Jimmy Wilkerson the backup that plays all the spots.

Mecca · 01-22-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

Thanks for the article Mecca.

IMHO if Jake Long is there for the Chiefs when they pick it is a no brainer you take him. If not take Ellis or whoever the BPA is.

IMHO there really shouldn't be much discussion about this.

So you'd rather just get Jake Long than getting a defensive game changer and a starting OT...

**the Talking Can** · 01-22-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by findthedr

Drafting for need is what was advocated by the Patriots former director of scouting, who is now GM of Atlanta

no, it wasn't...this is untrue

jesus christ almighty you have an amazing ability to confuse simple things.....

RustShack · 01-22-2008, 10:06 PM

If we draft Long OVER Doresy or Ellis I will be pissed. We can get a cornerstone LT in the 2nd round, not a dominate DT that our defense NEEDS.

Mecca · 01-22-2008, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustShack

If we draft Long OVER Doresy or Ellis I will be pissed. We can get a cornerstone LT in the 2nd round, not a dominate DT that our defense NEEDS.

Even if we don't we can get a starting RT and get the LT next year...this team isn't good people need to stop fooling themselves into thinking Jake Long is gonna make this a playoff team.

**dirk digler** · 01-22-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

So you'd rather just get Jake Long than getting a defensive game changer and a starting OT...

I don't really understand your question about getting both Ellis and a starting OT.

For me it is simple, if Jake Long is there at pick 5 then you should take him. The Chiefs have already said publicly their are going to be 3 new starters on the O-Line this year. This will fill 1.

If Long is not there take Ellis or whoever the BPA is.

The Chiefs have a ton of holes but the O-line is the worst in the NFL and it needs to be fixed

I think the more interesting question would be is if Ryan was there at pick 5 do you take him?

bdeg · 01-22-2008, 10:10 PM

I'd love to get Ellis too. That would be a great draft.

Ellis
OT
Charles Godfrey in the 3rd would be great.

crazycoffey · 01-22-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

It's an absolute need.......

IMO, no - it's not....

as far as they being the answer, I believe I addressed that too, I wasn't saying they're good enough to not take any DT, I just think we should be playing our cards right, jake long gone, we may take one of these guys (I'll be surprised, but whatever), we may use it for a trade, or we may draft some other postion.

BTW, I'm not saying we are only one or two players away, I'm only arguing that we started rebuilding a couple years ago, and we addressed several needs, the ones we didn't need (OL, LB, CB) to be addressed now somehow...

Mecca · 01-22-2008, 10:10 PM

There's about 7 guys I'd rather have than Jake Long....

I just think that is bad value when you can get a defensive game changer and STILL get line help later because of the depth of it in the draft. Hell with the depth this year they could take Ellis first and still get 2-3 OL.

Deberg_1990 · 01-22-2008, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Even if we don't we can get a starting RT and get the LT next year...this team isn't good people need to stop fooling themselves into thinking Jake Long is gonna make this a playoff team.

Chiefs fans have been conditioned by Carl for years that this team is "right on the verge"

Its time for the fans to get used to a full blown rebuild.

Think how bad this team was in the late 80's.

But yet, in a way it set the stage for Marty and Carl to have success right away.

They were able to grab "cornstone" players like Okoye, Neil Smith and DT because they were always picking so high.

Mecca · 01-22-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

IMO, no - it's not....

as far as they being the answer, I believe I addressed that too, I wasn't saying they're good enough to not take any DT, I just think we should be playing our cards right, jake long gone, we may take one of these guys (I'll be surprised, but whatever), we may use it for a trade, or we may draft some other postion.

BTW, I'm not saying we are only one or two players away, I'm only arguing that we started rebuilding a couple years ago, and we addressed several needs, the ones we didn't need (OL, LB, CB) to be addressed now somehow...

Drafting Sedrick Ellis will make the crappy secondary better......

This team can still get a good OT and a good OG even taking Ellis first, that's why I consider Long bad value first. If you take him first who you gonna take 2nd? There won't be a DT....what are you gonna do take a Guard overly high? Draft a corner who won't have nearly the impact...

01-22-2008, 08:16 PM
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $2147050	Sizing up the DT's January 22, 2008 If you have ever watched the National Geographic Channel, you would know that the grizzly bear is a fearsome creature. When the grizzly bear stands on its hind legs, you know you are in trouble but don’t try to run because the grizzly bear is violently quick, running at an alarming 35 miles per hour. In the 2008 draft, there are two defensive tackles that resemble grizzly bears. Louisiana State’s Glenn Dorsey and Southern Cal’s Sedrick Ellis are two of the most feared DTs to come out in the same year since 1994 when Dan Wilkinson and Bryant Young both went within the first seven selections of the NFL Draft. One on One When we break down the tape, both Dorsey and Ellis are fierce linemen with more physical tools than any highly regarded defensive tackle since Tommie Harris in 2004. We won’t get a confirmed height and weight for Glenn Dorsey until the NFL Combine, but he is reportedly 6’2”, 303 lbs. At the Senior Bowl, Sedrick Ellis sized in at 6’0”, 308 lbs. LSU’s Glenn Dorsey recorded 7 sacks, 12.5 tackles for a loss, and 69 total tackles as a senior in 2007. He also forced 1 fumble, hurried the quarterback 3 times, and broke up 3 passes. Dorsey may have the ideal frame for a defensive tackle but his quickness is similar to a defensive end’s. He does well as a pass rusher and usually was double teamed in 2007. Despite playing hurt most of 2007, Dorsey managed to change the momentum of games, especially against South Carolina. Dorsey’s arm length doesn’t wow scouts but the ability to dominate in one-on-one situations and swallow any gap around him makes up for what he lacks physically. The Trojans have had a hidden gem in Sedrick Ellis for some time but he didn’t begin to garnish national attention until his senior year. In 2007, Ellis filled up his stat sheet with 8.5 sacks, 12.5 tackles for a loss and 58 total tackles. He also had 1 quarterback hurry and 7 passes broken up. Ellis isn’t as big height-wise as scouts like, but his extraterrestrial strength and speed makes him a highly regarded prospect. He is very instinctive and leads with a very quick first step. Watching Ellis is like watching a fundamental video on how to shed blocks. He possesses sound techniques and has top-notch intangibles. Like Dorsey, Ellis has had injury problems, breaking his ankle in 2003 and injuring his left knee in 2006. When it comes to disrupting the fluidity on offense for opponents, there is not one prospect in this draft that can do that like Sedrick Ellis. Natural Habitat Unlike Ellis, Glenn Dorsey would be better suited for just the 4-3 defensive scheme. As you can see, Ellis could play in both the 3-4 and 4-3. Dorsey is solid in shedding blockers but isn’t the nose tackle prospect Haloti Ngata was a couple of years’ back. Meanwhile, Sedrick Ellis is a hog at both positions, relinquishing the power that the center and guards may have on him and dominating the trenches. While you may be confused and start to wonder, how is Dorsey more highly regarded than Ellis? He simply isn’t. As you read this, there are scouts and pro personnel breaking down film trying to decipher who is better suited for what and who has shown more weakness than the other. At the end of the day, it may be a push. Dorsey has a quicker first step and may use his hands better than Ellis but Ellis is quicker to dominate a double-team than Dorsey. Both DTs have played through injuries during their time in school and both have anchored a BCS defense. Conclusion If there were any fair comparison’s to current NFL DTs, I would put Glenn Dorsey in the Kevin Williams category and place Sedrick Ellis in the Albert Haynesworth category. In all honesty though, there are no fair comparisons. Both have the upside as the aforementioned Pro Bowler’s. Both have the talent and value to award them with bank-breaking rookie contracts. The only difference between the two is that depending on defensive scheme, one will get drafted ahead of the other. Don’t look for the Miami Dolphins to draft Glenn Dorsey if they put in place a 3-4 scheme. Instead, look for them to address another need or grab a defensive end. On the other hand, Dorsey would fit in well with the St. Louis Rams (to replace La’Roi Glover). Sedrick Ellis meanwhile would be a great fit for the Miami Dolphins but his stock is not quite that up that high yet. Ellis plays with a Warren Sapp-like mean streak and could fit in well with Oakland. Regardless of this speculation, both Dorsey and Ellis will be top 8 eight selections come April. So who is the better prospect? Flip a coin -- you can’t be wrong with heads or tails. This is the perfect win-win scenario for a franchise picking early in the draft that needs to address the middle of their defensive line.
Posts: 111,255

01-22-2008, 09:59 PM	#62
dirk digler Please squeeze Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Clinton, MO Casino cash: $2824644	Thanks for the article Mecca. IMHO if Jake Long is there for the Chiefs when they pick it is a no brainer you take him. If not take Ellis or whoever the BPA is. IMHO there really shouldn't be much discussion about this.
Posts: 66,435

01-22-2008, 09:59 PM	#63
BigChiefFan MVP Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: In the Top 10 Casino cash: $9924205	I definitely agree that Ellis or Dorsey will be better VALUE in the 1st round, if one or both should drop to us-preferably Ellis. Jake Long looks to be the real deal, but there is no denying the DTs will fall off dramatically after Ellis and Dorsey are off the board. This draft is deep for O-line-lucky for us. __________________ A 35 year drought can make you thirsty.
Posts: 15,777

01-22-2008, 10:06 PM	#68
RustShack **** That Noise Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Jack Trice Casino cash: $4556954	If we draft Long OVER Doresy or Ellis I will be pissed. We can get a cornerstone LT in the 2nd round, not a dominate DT that our defense NEEDS. __________________
Posts: 15,051

01-22-2008, 10:10 PM	#71
bdeg Veteran Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: iowa Casino cash: $10004900	I'd love to get Ellis too. That would be a great draft. Ellis OT Charles Godfrey in the 3rd would be great.
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