Debating Herm's Future

[Hammock Parties]

Pat loves Herm. I hate him.

http://kan.scout.com/2/824279.html

With Carl Peterson’s resignation, Chiefs Head Coach Herm Edwards is now on the hot seat. Will he be fired? In this collaboration, Pat Clifton argues for Edwards to be retained as head coach, while C.E. Wendler argues against his retention.

CLIFTON - Don’t Punish Herm For Previous Mistakes One of the main reasons Herm Edwards deserves another year as the head man in Kansas City is the state this team was in when he got here. Dick Vermeil and Carl Peterson foolishly stocked the cupboard with high-priced veterans in an attempt to win a Super Bowl. While making the big game your ultimate goal is no sin, selling out the future of the franchise certainly is. Willie Roaf and Trent Green were great acquisitions who made significant differences during Kansas City's successful 13-3 campaign, but players like Shawn Barber, Vonnie Holliday, Chris Bober and Kendrell Bell stunted the growth of the franchise. Patrick Surtain had some meaningful years in Kansas City, but was overpaid. Let's also not forget Peterson's tiff with John Tait that sent a young, talented tackle away, and Vermeil's lack of interest in giving Donnie Edwards a long-term deal. Throughout the Vermeil era, fans and media members constantly referred to a “window of opportunity” for winning a Super Bowl. As Green, Priest Holmes, Roaf, and everyone else aged, that window slowly closed. Have you ever heard the phrase “window of opportunity” uttered in reference to Pittsburgh, New England, Philadelphia or Tampa Bay? No. Even after the retirement of Tiki Barber and Michael Strahan, the Giants are still a viable championship contender. Carl and Dick sold out the future of the franchise in an attempt to give Lamar Hunt one more championship, and though a valiant effort, it failed and now we're left with the aftermath. Herm Edwards was charged with the unfavorable and thankless task of rebuilding this team from the ground up, and has only been allowed to truly do that for one season now. He deserves one more year to see his vision come to fruition. COUNTERPOINT There’s no arguing with Pat’s premise that the cupboard was relatively bare when Herm Edwards arrived in Kansas City. The Chiefs drafted horribly during the Dick Vermeil era, and most of the viable talent on the roster was aging, or already well past its prime. However, should that really net Edwards another year three seasons after the fact? Herm has had three years to reshape the roster as he sees fit. Obviously Carl Peterson had some say in it, but it’s worth noting that the best players of the Herm Edwards era – Jared Allen, Larry Johnson, Tony Gonzalez – all came from the Dick Vermeil era. Herm’s had three seasons to find his own franchise-caliber players. Where are his superstars? Where are the players he can point to and say, “He’s a reason we’re on the right track?” Dwayne Bowe is close, but hasn’t had a season like Gonzalez or Johnson previously enjoyed. Besides, what are the Chiefs really going to accomplish in one more year? There are still so many holes on this team – offensive line, defensive end, linebacker, safety, maybe quarterback, and tons of depth issues – it’s going to be tough for the 2009 Chiefs to impress anyone barring an enormous acquisition of talent in one offseason. WENDLER - Herm Is Overrated As A Judge Of Talent When he was hired, there was a lot of talk that Herm Edwards really knew how to identify and cultivate talent. People pointed to a few players he drafted in New York, and at the time, everyone was pretty happy with his first draft in Kansas City. Three years later, that draft doesn’t look so good. Tamba Hali is having an awful year, Bernard Pollard is still struggling despite some recent strides, and Brodie Croyle can probably be considered a bust. The second day of that draft is embarrassingly bad apart from seventh-round pick Jarrad Page. Apart from Dwayne Bowe and Tank Tyler, the Chiefs’ 2007 draft isn’t all that impressive, either. But Herm was ready to go to battle with some of these players. He thought so much of Hali, he signed off on his move to right defensive end this year, which obviously completely flopped. He thought so much of Croyle, the Chiefs felt their quarterback depth chart was fine going into the season despite awful training camps from Damon Huard and Tyler Thigpen. How about the Chiefs’ terrible free-agent signings over the last three years? Obviously we can’t place the blame for every wasted signing completely on Herm, but as the head coach he has to have some input. And we know he loves Jon McGraw, whom most people are pretty unsatisfied with on defense or special teams. The point is that Herm may realize the benefit of playing young players, but he may not know how to pick them especially well. COUNTERPOINT I have to disagree on this point here altogether, starting with Tamba Hali, who excited many fans his first two seasons with the Chiefs and understandably so. He outsacked Jared Allen in 2006 and registered 7.5 sacks in 2007. He's obviously playing injured this season, and that's really hampered his ability to get after the quarterback. Another thing that excited fans about Hali was his knack for forcing fumbles. He has 12 in three years. While his production has been limited this year, and he's not yet lived up to his first-round ability, he’s being hampered by injuries in his third season, which is supposed to be the coming out year for NFL players. Secondly, I'll agree that Brodie Croyle is considered a bust, but he was just a third-rounder. Herm took a shot on a fragile guy who had every ability required to be an NFL quarterback except for the ability to stay healthy. If he was playing behind the lines Trent Green played behind, who's to say Croyle wouldn't flourish? When it comes to Jon McGraw, he was a castaway who's now the Chiefs’ special teams captain. Not only is he a good locker room influence, but he makes a ton of tackles on coverage teams. Yes, KC's return teams are wretched, but McGraw is the lone bright spot. I won't sit here and claim that Edwards is a draft guru, but I don't think it's fair to judge his drafts just yet. Generally drafts aren't fair game for retrospective evaluation until three years after the fact, and that leaves only Edward's first draft. Some of those players, like Pollard, have underperformed immensely, but finding a solid and possible future pro bowl safety in the seventh round is unheard of. Give Edwards kudos for that. Let's also not forget the accolades cast upon the Chiefs after the '08 draft. CLIFTON - Players Love Herm Edwards' popularity among players is another reason he ought to be kept around. Recently, a poll was conducted among NFL players about who would be their favorite coaches to play for. Edwards was fourth, and has drawn some criticism for his reputation as a player's coach, but I would argue that it's a positive thing. With the Chiefs somewhere around $30 million under the salary cap and with lots of holes to fill, they're going to have to be aggressive in the free agent market. For a lot of free agents out there, a la Ty Law, money isn't the sole deciding factor on where to sign. If a player likes the coach, it makes him a little easier to woo. The Chiefs have one of the most popular coaches in the league in Edwards, and if his retention means they're more likely to snag a high-level free agent this spring, then I'm all for it. Herm's experiences as a player in the NFL and his understanding of a player's needs are a bonus when trying to lure free agents, and it's a bonus that's often overlooked. In addition to the fringe benefits of Edwards’ popularity in free agency, he still commands the respect of the locker room. Edwards has motivated a terrible team with nothing to play for to fight like they’re in the middle of a playoff race for the last half of the season. If he can demand that kind of play out of this bad of a team, imagine what he'll be able to do with a good squad. COUNTERPOINT As popular as Herm may be, players don’t always know what’s best for them. If they did, there would be little need for coaching. What’s the old saying? The inmates shouldn’t run the asylum? A little history lesson goes a long way in countering this point. When the Chiefs dumped John Mackovic following the 1986 season, the Chiefs’ players rallied together in support of Frank Gansz, their special teams coach, to be their next head coach. Kansas City’s brass completely bought it. Gansz was named head coach and the Chiefs went on to win eight games in two years. Still, that’s better than Herm has done recently. Does anyone know if Gansz is looking for work? As for free agency, is the popularity of a head coach really going to matter? It certainly didn’t help the Chiefs this year when they lost out on Josh Brown and Jeff Faine. Herm may be Mr. Popular, but looking at the terrible free-agent signings the Chiefs have made under his watch, you wonder if it means much. WENDLER - Herm Not The Defensive Guru We Thought He Was The first day he was hired, Herm Edwards made a grand speech about defense. He told us all that his Chiefs would play defense, and they would get dirty. Three years later, the players are dirty, but without much to show for it. The Chiefs returned to the lows of the Greg-Robinson era on defense this year and currently rank 31st. Why? Sure, the Chiefs had plenty of injuries on defense this year, but even when they were completely healthy, they struggled immensely. The only thing Kansas City really lost on that side of the ball was Jared Allen. Obviously, Allen is a great player, but is the absence of his impact alone enough to drop the Chiefs from an above average defense to the league’s worst? Good coaching finds ways to get the most out of the talent on the field. Look what Chan Gailey did with an offense that was putting up bottom-of-the-barrel numbers for weeks, simply by switching schemes to the spread. And he did it with an inexperienced quarterback to boot. Where is the defensive equivalent of this? And what is Herm’s real worth to the Chiefs if the biggest improvement during his tenure has come on offense? Is he even the right coach to manage the sort of team that leads with its offense? To make matters worse, Edwards has been quoted as saying he wants this year’s entire defensive staff to return next season. Really? The entire staff on the 31st-ranked defense in the NFL is doing a bang-up job? I find that hard to believe. COUNTERPOINT There is undeniable validity to the argument that Herm hasn't turned the defense around like expected, but look what he's had to work with. In 2005, KC's leading top 10 tacklers were as follows: Kawika Mitchell, Sammy Knight, Derrick Johnson, Greg Wesley, Jared Allen, Eric Hicks, Kendrell Bell, Patrick Surtain, Eric Warfield and John Browning. Of those 10 players, only two remain on the team, and of the departed ones, there are only two who anyone could argue the Chiefs should have retained: Allen and Mitchell. The thing a lot of people forget is that this defense wasn't just terrible when Edwards arrived, but rather it was terrible and terribly old. Everyone talks about the offense aging and that hurting the team, but no one acknowledges how old the defensive players were. When a player crosses over the hill, his play generally gets worse. So, take a bad player and make him worse, and there you have the Chiefs’ defensive players left for Edwards to work with. Yes, this year's defense is bad, but look at its makeup. There are only three starters with more than three years of experience, and I don't think anyone's going to tell me that Jason Babin, Rocky Boiman, or Demorrio Williams are defensive leaders in terms of skill. Give Glenn Dorsey, Brandon Carr, Brandon Flowers, and Tank Tyler more time to season, then replace Pollard, and you've got yourself a potentially good defense. Also, add another draft that could likely bring a highly rated rush end and a starting linebacker and we're looking pretty good. Old players get worse, save Tony Gonzalez, and young players get better. These players will get better. WENDLER - Herm’s Attitude Is Tiresome Forget the on-the-field, gameday problems. What’s really been disturbing this year are Herm Edwards’ press conferences. Every week, there’s someone new to blame, whether it’s a veteran or an undrafted free agent cornerback who’s playing without the benefit of a real pass rush. Nothing is never Herm’s fault. Most of the time, sitting through one of Dick Vermeil’s press conferences was tolerable, because after a loss he always stood up and said he and his coaching staff had to do a better job. When was the last time Edwards said anything like that? It was absolutely refreshing to hear Detroit Head Coach Rod Marinelli humble himself in front of the media the other day after the Lions’ 15th loss. The only thing that separates Edwards and Marinelli this year is two wins (one over a team with JaMarcus Russell at quarterback). Yet this week, Edwards was telling us all how well-coached the Chiefs are. Does Herm have a giant, untapped reserve of coaching genius at his disposal? If the Chiefs are supposedly well-coached now, it’s going to take the best coaching effort in the history of the NFL to bring them from winning two games to competing for the playoffs. It’s not all about talent. COUNTERPOINT Edwards has continuously talked about the encouraging play of many of his young players day in and day out. Many people are only privy to the gameday press conferences, but privately I've been lucky enough to listen to him gush over players like Brandon Carr, Brandon Flowers, Branden Albert, Tyler Thigpen and Tony Gonzalez. Herm has never once thrown his players under the bus. Even after veterans Patrick Surtain and Jarrad Page screwed up coverage on the go-ahead scoring drive in the meltdown against San Diego last week, Edwards refused to name the player who made the mistake, leaving media members to guess which player blew the coverage. Edwards is a stand-up guy, and he believes in his football team. He has a team full of young players, and he openly admits they are going to make mistakes, but they should be attributed to youth, not inability. As far as the statement that winning requires more than talent, I couldn't agree more. That’s precisely why I believe you have to commend the job Edwards and his staff have done with such a lack of talent this year. They've not won many games, but improved, and they've gone down to the wire many good teams.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by BigChiefFan

Point: Herm is attrocious as HC of the Chiefs evidenced by his record.
Counterpoint:None.

Yeah, because we all know that the Chiefs are just as talented as the Patriots, Giants, Steelers, Ravens, Panthers, Falcons and Colts.

It's just the head coach that holding them back.

[BigChiefFan]

THREE YEARS to turn the defense around-FAIL. The 32 defense is indefensable.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Yeah, because we all know that the Chiefs are just as talented as the Patriots, Giants, Steelers, Ravens, Panthers, Falcons and Colts.

It's just the head coach that holding them back.

Sorry; I have no choice:

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by RustShack

Oh Herm skipped out on draft day the first two years?

The 2006 draft was a disaster. The 2007 draft was on par with what you should expect an NFL team to do when drafting out of the #22 spot. People often forget that it's not like we had an attractive draft position. Out of that draft, we have 4 players who will probably be on the roster 5 years from now: Bowe, Tank, Turk and Herb Taylor. One, Kolby Smith, is borderline.

The 2007 draft wasn't a bad one. You know your fans are getting too choosy when they start acting like the 54th pick in the draft is a slam dunk. Drafting is as much about building quality depth as much as it is about landing a few solid starters.

I think the 2007 draft was decent. Not great, but good enough. And I think with the right coaching, Tank and Turk will both be solid contributors, which would make the draft a good one.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by BigChiefFan

THREE YEARS to turn the defense around-FAIL. The 32 defense is indefensable.

So you honestly expected the defense to improve after trading their best defensive player?

There are some weird expectations around here.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by TEX

In spite of all Carl's failures, Herm had plenty of chances to win more and hasn't. He's a terrible game-day coach and despite his famous " You play to win the game" BS line, Edwards plays "not to lose." Because of that in part, he has fostered in a losing culture. He thinks his staff has done a fine job and wants to bring back ALL the defensive coaches on the worst defense in the league. Carl has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. It's clearly time for him to go.

Herm is definitely to blame for not wanting his assistants fired, but to say Carl has absolutely nothing to do with any of that is absurd. I think you're forgetting who's the boss of who. If Carl Peterson demanded that Gun be fired after last season, there wasn't anything Herm could do about it.

I don't like Herm's gameday coaching. You're not going to have a hard time convincing me of that. But from a personnel standpoint, I think he's done a good job given the resources he was given.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Eric Mangini is in a similar situation. If Mangini can't coach the Jets to win Sun against Miami and get his team to the playoffs, the N.Y. media wants him fired. The is pressure is on -- He better make the SP. If not, he's life will never be the same. lol

As one reporter noted, "And if he doesn’t take some chances and find a way to mix up his play calls to give his players an opportunity to gain some confidence, it won’t really matter. The Jets will not have any chance to make a run at or into the postseason."

Mangini was thrown off balance today when asked by testy reporters to explain his game plan. Tell if this game plan doesn't sound familiar:

Again, we are trying to pretend that Herm has dealt with the same adversity as other coaches and it's simply not true. The Jets started rebuilding three years ago. They had a top 5 pick in the draft three years ago. Since we all know it generally takes about 2-3 years to get full development out of a player, we can assume that those players like D'Brickishaw and Mangold should have peaked by now, whereas guys like Dorsey and Carr are still learning and improving.

Most importantly, the Jets loaded Mangini with free agent talent. To help Mangini, they gave him Faneca, Favre, Thomas Jones, Kris Jenkins, Calvin Pace, Damion Woody, and Tony Richardson. Most of those guys were blue-chip free agents. That's called giving your head coach a fair chance to compete. The Jets decided immediately after Herm that they were going to rebuild, they immediately started playing youth over experience, and they opened their wallet up to Mangini to get players that he wanted.

[RustShack]

OK OK OK Herm came here to fix the defense and not touch the offense. It takes good coaches three years to turn a team around. Herm couldn't even fix JUST the defense in three years.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by RustShack

OK OK OK Herm came here to fix the defense and not touch the offense. It takes good coaches three years to turn a team around. Herm couldn't even fix JUST the defense in three years.

The difference is that when most new coaches come in, they're allowed to clean house. Herm should have been allowed to blow the team up as soon as he walked in. Instead, Peterson insisted that the team limp on with a team that we knew was getting old. Rather than bring in future-bright free agents, he threw money at third contract veterans whose sole purpose was obviously to extent the limping window 1 or 2 more years. Wasting money on Ty Law and Donnie Edwards, who we knew would only play 2 or 3 years max was absolutely insane.

And so, we got two bad outcomes out of that. Because we insisted on "winning now", we ended up with low draft picks whereas most rebuilding teams get top 5 picks. And we didn't play the young guys as soon as we should. And the free agnets we brought in had a short-term purpose rather than long-term.

Again, to say that this rebuild started 3 years ago ignores the facts. This team should have been blown up years ago. It sounds like Herm wanted to do that, but Peterson resisted. And we know who was wrong on that call.

[Reerun_KC]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I'd recommend that you stop trying to point out the obvious to Reerun.

He only sees one thing when evaluating the Chiefs: W/L.

Nothing else matters, so you're wasting your time.

Thank you Dane! You save him so much effort in responding...



Have a Merry Christmas, and we will miss you when Herm leaves... Thanks for visiting our message board during his tenure and we wish the both of you luck and many years of happiness...

[TEX]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Herm is definitely to blame for not wanting his assistants fired, but to say Carl has absolutely nothing to do with any of that is absurd. I think you're forgetting who's the boss of who. If Carl Peterson demanded that Gun be fired after last season, there wasn't anything Herm could do about it.

I don't like Herm's gameday coaching. You're not going to have a hard time convincing me of that. But from a personnel standpoint, I think he's done a good job given the resources he was given.

Carl has noting to do with game decisions. I'm not forgetting anything. There is no rational way to defend this coaching staff. They have proven, along with Herm, they are pathetic.

[KCBOSS1]

Don't know if anybody said this specifically...But to me, here is the reason that Herm goes: If the new GM or Director of Football Operations (whatever he is called) doesn't replace Herm and we have another pathetic year...it seriously puts him behind the eight ball as far as the fans are concerned.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Again, we are trying to pretend that Herm has dealt with the same adversity as other coaches and it's simply not true. The Jets started rebuilding three years ago. They had a top 5 pick in the draft three years ago. Since we all know it generally takes about 2-3 years to get full development out of a player, we can assume that those players like D'Brickishaw and Mangold should have peaked by now, whereas guys like Dorsey and Carr are still learning and improving.

Most importantly, the Jets loaded Mangini with free agent talent. To help Mangini, they gave him Faneca, Favre, Thomas Jones, Kris Jenkins, Calvin Pace, Damion Woody, and Tony Richardson. Most of those guys were blue-chip free agents. That's called giving your head coach a fair chance to compete. The Jets decided immediately after Herm that they were going to rebuild, they immediately started playing youth over experience, and they opened their wallet up to Mangini to get players that he wanted.

I apologize. My thoughts were incomplete and arguably misleading jumbled mess.

Here's what I was comparing: NFL coaches agree to a 3-year contract. They're being paid millions to get it right. Nobody likes to lose, especially the fans.

The interesting dilemma facing the Jets, is the possibility that they will miss the playoffs. Eric Mangini is in the third year of a four-year contract. It didn't help matters with questionable calls that cost the Jets (I believe) two games in the past month.

If they lose on Sunday, my guess would be -- Woody Johnson will take action and fire Mangini. It's being reported that most likey, Johnson will blow up the team and rebuilt from scratch.

It's clear in the press, the fans want him out. But, if Mangini wins, all will be forgiven.

Power of the fans.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Reerun_KC

Fair enough, but we are not getting better or more talented after 3 drafts...

Honestly, if this team is going to succeed in the future, Carl is already gone, and Herm HAS to go, a long with his staff...

There hasnt been a better time in the last 20 years to dump the whole ****ing thing and start fresh with a new approach to building a franchise/championship team..

Keeping Herm is a slap in the face to the fans and especially the STH's.

zilla makes a lot of valid points, but the fact is that Herman ****ing Edwards is the worst coach in the league.

He didn't screw this team up with his personnel decisions.

He screwed it up with his game day decsions.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I'm sure you will lay down plenty of opinions about how Herm messed up the team. You'll create plenty of lose-lose situations. If Turk McBride becomes a pro bowler, you'll criticize Herm for not coaching him up. If Turk ends up getting cut, you'll criticize Herm for drafting the wrong guy. I know how this works.

I guarantee that in 2-3 years, we'll look back at the foundation herm is leaving behind in 2008 and say that we made a lot of real good personnel decisions. For those that are objective enough, that is, to evaluate the situation fairly.

He has, IMO, made a lot of good personnel decisions.

That, however, isn't enough reason to keep him.

He needs to get the **** out before he ruins any chance that these kids have of playing up to their potential.