Chiefs Are We Headed For Vermeil 2.0? - Page 6

**petegz28** · 08-02-2018, 09:00 AM

The way Mahomes can sling the ball shows promise for some high scoring offense. That being said, is the defense going to be able to cut it this season?

One thing that bailed out the defense to a degree the last few seasons was that Smith rarely turned the ball over. Even in a 3 & out situation, MVP usually kicked the ball deep enough to control field position.

Mahomes is neither Green nor Smith. I think he will put up the points Green did but obviously is going to have more turnovers than Smith did. Which is okay. But the defense can't be what it has been.

The defense and Bob Sutton are going to have to learn how to help out when those turnovers happen as they are probably going to happen more than they are used too given the nature of Mahomes. We know there are going to be some great passing plays. We also know that gunslingers will usually throw a few more INT's as well trying to make plays happen. Again, that is okay.

The Sutton defense of "bend but don't break" may have to take a page out of the Denver defense and start really getting after the QB and actually shutting down offenses before they get into FG range, etc.

If our defense is anything like has been during the Sutton era, we could be heading toward Vermeil 2.0 where you're going to have to hope 49 points is enough to win.

**petegz28** · 08-02-2018, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randallflagg

Sorry, But I don't agree. This Defense hasn't been "good" since the days of Marty. It has been "passable" at best and a "joke" at worst.

The main theme from one season to another? Sutton. I put Sutton in the same category as Dave Adolph. Little more than a waste of time.

Sutton does remind me a lot of Adolph and GRob to the point that he seems to try to scheme and "out-think" the other team too often when really you just need to line up and punch ****ers in the mouth. In his defense, I think Reid does the same damn thing.

Gary · 08-02-2018, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Best22

Not defending Sutton, but his 2013 defense stunk. All smoke and mirrors

His best defense was 2014, his second best was 2015

The playoff loss in 2016 was easily predicted because our run defense was far too soft to handle Pittsburgh. The 2013 loss was expected because our pass defense was atrocious in 2013. The 2017 loss wasn't surprising because our defense was a bit of a sieve

But comparing a defense with Houston, Berry, Fuller, and Hitchens to a 2002-2004 defense is a joke. People are selling the D extremely short

Too bad about the Ragland injury. I thought Hitchens and Ragland would have made a big difference right from the get go this year.

Randallflagg · 08-02-2018, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

Well, the stats again, say otherwise a bit.

If the 90's defense is what we're shooting for, well, I guess good luck.

Defense is a world different from Offense. Or, as someone once stated - "The best Defense is a strong Offense". In other words, you can't sit back and WAIT for something to happen. If the Defense isn't dictating what the Offense can and can't do - then you spend the entire game REACTING. Has nothing to do with the 90s.

Look at ANY successful Defense at ANY level of Football. Attack, Attack and then Attack. Let your backs do THEIR jobs. Let your LBs do THEIR jobs. Let the D Line do THEIR jobs. Don't have your LBs dropping 30 yards into coverage. A decent QB will eat you alive all day - as shown by our past.

You can raise all the hell you want about Marty - or even Cunningham, and it is probably justified - but one damned thing that no one can take from either of them, they were respected all over the NFL with their Defense. Teams HATED coming here to play the Chiefs. Now? It's just another day at the office.

Football is a game. It doesn't change with the decades. It is just "re-invented" to LOOK different. Hell, you "might" fool a team one week - but you won't get away with it for an entire season. Bottom line? It is still played between the hash marks, in the mud, and in the rain and snow.

Best22 · 08-02-2018, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary

Too bad about the Ragland injury. I thought Hitchens and Ragland would have made a big difference right from the get go this year.

Let's see our week 1 preseason roster before we get too worried

Best22 · 08-02-2018, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randallflagg

Defense is a world different from Offense. Or, as someone once stated - "The best Defense is a strong Offense". In other words, you can't sit back and WAIT for something to happen. If the Defense isn't dictating what the Offense can and can't do - then you spend the entire game REACTING. Has nothing to do with the 90s.

Look at ANY successful Defense at ANY level of Football. Attack, Attack and then Attack. Let your backs do THEIR jobs. Let your LBs do THEIR jobs. Let the D Line do THEIR jobs. Don't have your LBs dropping 30 yards into coverage. A decent QB will eat you alive all day - as shown by our past.

You can raise all the hell you want about Marty - or even Cunningham, and it is probably justified - but one damned thing that no one can take from either of them, they were respected all over the NFL with their Defense. Teams HATED coming here to play the Chiefs. Now? It's just another day at the office.

Football is a game. It doesn't change with the decades. It is just "re-invented" to LOOK different. Hell, you "might" fool a team one week - but you won't get away with it for an entire season. Bottom line? It is still played between the hash marks, in the mud, and in the rain and snow.

Yep. Getting pushed around by Steelers and Titans was pathetic. But fans say "oh, only 18 points allowed."

IowaHawkeyeChief · 08-02-2018, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Best22

Not defending Sutton, but his 2013 defense stunk. All smoke and mirrors

His best defense was 2014, his second best was 2015

The playoff loss in 2016 was easily predicted because our run defense was far too soft to handle Pittsburgh. The 2013 loss was expected because our pass defense was atrocious in 2013. The 2017 loss wasn't surprising because our defense was a bit of a sieve

But comparing a defense with Houston, Berry, Fuller, and Hitchens to a 2002-2004 defense is a joke. People are selling the D extremely short

^this^

Chris Meck · 08-02-2018, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petegz28

Sutton does remind me a lot of Adolph and GRob to the point that he seems to try to scheme and "out-think" the other team too often when really you just need to line up and punch ****ers in the mouth. In his defense, I think Reid does the same damn thing.

I think that was out of necessity. It seems to me that what Veach has said rather loudly in this offseason is that we needed to get younger, faster, and more aggressive.

**BossChief** · 08-02-2018, 11:18 AM

Would start on most good defenses

Berry
Hitchens
Jones
Houston
Fuller

Solid defenders

Ragland
Sorensen
Ford
Bailey

Looking to prove they can reach potential

Kpassagnon
Speaks
Nnadi
Amerson
Williams
Watts

Our second team defense is better than the 2003 starting defense.

I can’t believe this comparison is even being made.

Warfield
Bartee
Mccleon
Browning
Sims
Bell
Hicks
Holliday
Maslowski
Woods
Wesley
Fujita

Fujita and Woods were the only guys on that defense that were even solid.

beach tribe · 08-02-2018, 11:26 AM

Sutton D is good at keeping the other team out of the end zone when it is firing on all cylinders, but it is ridiculously flawed in getting the most potential out of the players on the field. I read a fantastic article on the athletic about Justin Houston, his performance, and how he was utilized and it just disgusted me. Houston is absolutely Elite and Sutton is the only thing holding him back from being an absolute terror.
All that said, with the offenses potential, keeping the other team out of the end zone may be the only thing that's needed to dominate the f****** League

**loochy** · 08-02-2018, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

Solid defenders

Ragland
Sorensen
Ford
Bailey

Sorensen - no. He's a backup.
Ford - no. He belongs in the "prove his potenital" group.
Bailey - maybe. He WAS a solid player. Last year he was....not much. He looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane.

keg in kc · 08-02-2018, 12:08 PM

There is much, much more talent on this defense, and while Sutton should've been fired, Greg Robinson was worse.

**MahiMike** · 08-02-2018, 01:20 PM

They need to get back to an emphasis on turnover creation. Remember the 90's?

JakeF · 08-02-2018, 01:26 PM

As mediocre as Sutton is at times, he's still better than Robinson. Reid is also a better all-around Head Coach than Vermeil was.

**loochy** · 08-02-2018, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MahiMike

They need to get back to an emphasis on turnover creation. Remember the 90's?

Yeah! Remember all those playoff wins?
Posted via Mobile Device

**ptlyon** · 08-02-2018, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loochy

Yeah! Remember all those playoff wins?
Posted via Mobile Device

We just didn't generate enough turnovers in those games.

Or field goals.

08-02-2018, 09:00 AM
petegz28 Supporter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Olathe, Ks Casino cash: $2544127	Are We Headed For Vermeil 2.0? The way Mahomes can sling the ball shows promise for some high scoring offense. That being said, is the defense going to be able to cut it this season? One thing that bailed out the defense to a degree the last few seasons was that Smith rarely turned the ball over. Even in a 3 & out situation, MVP usually kicked the ball deep enough to control field position. Mahomes is neither Green nor Smith. I think he will put up the points Green did but obviously is going to have more turnovers than Smith did. Which is okay. But the defense can't be what it has been. The defense and Bob Sutton are going to have to learn how to help out when those turnovers happen as they are probably going to happen more than they are used too given the nature of Mahomes. We know there are going to be some great passing plays. We also know that gunslingers will usually throw a few more INT's as well trying to make plays happen. Again, that is okay. The Sutton defense of "bend but don't break" may have to take a page out of the Denver defense and start really getting after the QB and actually shutting down offenses before they get into FG range, etc. If our defense is anything like has been during the Sutton era, we could be heading toward Vermeil 2.0 where you're going to have to hope 49 points is enough to win.
Posts: 128,247

08-02-2018, 11:18 AM	#83
BossChief SuperBowl or bust Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: BF Iowa Casino cash: $1644088	Would start on most good defenses Berry Hitchens Jones Houston Fuller Solid defenders Ragland Sorensen Ford Bailey Looking to prove they can reach potential Kpassagnon Speaks Nnadi Amerson Williams Watts Our second team defense is better than the 2003 starting defense. I can’t believe this comparison is even being made. Warfield Bartee Mccleon Browning Sims Bell Hicks Holliday Maslowski Woods Wesley Fujita Fujita and Woods were the only guys on that defense that were even solid. __________________ Dreams do come true... http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...postcount=1407
Posts: 47,158

08-02-2018, 11:26 AM	#84
beach tribe Keep doubting J MFing Houston Join Date: May 2007 Location: ft.lauderdale Casino cash: $4768036	Sutton D is good at keeping the other team out of the end zone when it is firing on all cylinders, but it is ridiculously flawed in getting the most potential out of the players on the field. I read a fantastic article on the athletic about Justin Houston, his performance, and how he was utilized and it just disgusted me. Houston is absolutely Elite and Sutton is the only thing holding him back from being an absolute terror. All that said, with the offenses potential, keeping the other team out of the end zone may be the only thing that's needed to dominate the f****** League
Posts: 21,429

08-02-2018, 12:08 PM	#86
keg in kc oxymoron Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: OP/KC/Whatever Casino cash: $9556299	There is much, much more talent on this defense, and while Sutton should've been fired, Greg Robinson was worse.
Posts: 58,682

08-02-2018, 01:20 PM	#87
MahiMike He's Mahomie! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Jax, FL Casino cash: $10023443	They need to get back to an emphasis on turnover creation. Remember the 90's? __________________ 99.9%
Posts: 17,387

08-02-2018, 01:26 PM	#88
JakeF MVP Join Date: May 2017 Casino cash: $9990400	As mediocre as Sutton is at times, he's still better than Robinson. Reid is also a better all-around Head Coach than Vermeil was.
Posts: 10,605	1 0