These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by DenverChief

OH I GOT NEG REPPED!

don't cry little one. it's just me keeping you from the doctor.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by underEJ

This is very much one of those slippery slopes. Will you start forcing Amish people to go to hospitals? Or is it okay to stay away if you wear a specific type of clothing and commit to a very extreme separation from general society.

Believe it or not, the Amish are sane, have good, common sense, and go to a doctor, nurse, hospitals, etc. when needed. The Amish do not stand around watching their children die.

[MIAdragon]

a1na2 so where do we draw the line? Is all fair in the name of religion? I can do what ever I want as long as its in the name of religion? I agree its a fine line but IMO when a minor is involved it becomes a little clearer.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

I don't think so.

I know you don't think you're wrong. And it's very troubling. Not being able to tell that letting your child die is wrong is very scary. It's a disregard for life. For instance, if people saw a man dying on the side of the road because people beat him up, they should NOT turn away and simply pray that God helps him. They should do something. There is a story similar to this that I've read/heard a few times.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Believe it or not, the Amish are sane, have good, common sense, and go to a doctor, nurse, hospitals, etc. when needed. The Amish do not stand around watching their children die.

Indeed.

Question: Do the Amish go for health care services? How do they deal with technological advances of health care? Do the Amish allow the Doctors to go all out when they are ill or do they place restrictions on medical care provided? Do they believe in immunizations?

Answer: The Amish use local doctors, dentists, eye doctors, etc., and will go to specialists and hospitals as needed. They make use of advances in health care that are used in hospitals, etc. They generally try home remedies for ailments first before going to a doctor or the hospital. They also are inclined to go to Mexico for major treatments because of the cost of medications. [Editor's note: The Amish do not participate in medical or insurance plans and instead pay for all medical costs themselves.] The children do get immunizations (although not all may do so just as not all Englishers may do so either). Answer coordinated by THE BUDGET.

For a well done essay on Amish health issues written by Thomas Ulrich, read Keeping The Faith. This article documents a number of the medical problems that face the Old Order Amish in their very tight knit society.

http://www.amish.net/faq.asp

I am mildly amused by the notion of an Amish website.

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

a1na2 so where do we draw the line? Is all fair in the name of religion? I can do what ever I want as long as its in the name of religion? I agree its a fine line but IMO when a minor is involved it becomes a little clearer.

I asked that question regarding "Christian Identity". He dodged it.

[underEJ]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Believe it or not, the Amish are sane, have good, common sense, and go to a doctor, nurse, hospitals, etc. when needed. The Amish do not stand around watching their children die.

After they try home remedies first, but there's a moment of decision that might be missed. This can apply just to people in very rural areas or people with no health care too. When is the point you propose to take over the decisions? It's just an answer that will never be absolute.

[mikey23545]

I'm beginning to recognize a1ana2's defense now.

Just like at the Nuremberg trials, "I was only following orders" is the excuse of the day. The only difference is that 60 years ago, Nazis said it about der Fuerher, now it's certain freak Christians saying it about der God...

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

They also are inclined to go to Mexico for major treatments because of the cost of medications.

This is interesting too ...I wonder if they fly or ride that horse to death?

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by DenverChief

This is interesting too ...I wonder if they fly or ride that horse to death?

I'd assume they fly. I've been told that using modern transportation and technology is acceptable in certain rare circumstances. I'd think major medical emergencies would qualify.

Originally Posted by underEJ

After they try home remedies first, but there's a moment of decision that might be missed. This can apply just to people in very rural areas or people with no health care too. When is the point you propose to take over the decisions? It's just an answer that will never be absolute.

It's not an absolute, but I'd say at the point the laws against child endangerment and neglect kick in.

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

I'd assume they fly. I've been told that using modern transportation and technology is acceptable in certain rare circumstances. I'd think major medical emergencies would qualify.

damn I was hoping that you were going to tell me they ride the horse to death...since it is their religious right

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

You're damn right I would be. And if your religion called for you to kill all homosexuals, or all white people over 42 years of age, guess what? I'd fight like hell to remove your right to practice religion the way you want to, and I wouldn't feel one damn bit bad about it.

What if your religion called for you to go kill American soldiers or kill Muslims, or kill heretics, or kill pagans, or burn witches at the stake and kill anyone who spoke against the church. Are you sure you could still speak and act so boldly? Its a historical fact that during WW2 the German Catholic church leaders (also the Protestant)wholeheartedly supported the Third Reich and prayed for their soldiers to conquer the enemy. You can also grab any respectable encyclopedia (even the Catholic encyclopedia) and do a little research under the word "Crusades" and also find out a little something about religious hatred, religious intolerance, religious abuse and religious ignorance.
Even today many people willingly and are proud to offer their young(18yo) children up to the god of war or will take the life of an unborn without blinking an eye. So yes, these parents are seriously misguided, but one must be careful not to be hypocritical or tread on the sacredness of freeness of speech and freedom of religion for they are the basis upon which this country's constitution was started from.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by DenverChief

damn I was hoping that you were going to tell me they ride the horse to death...since it is their religious right

[Thig Lyfe]

God was too busy helping an NBA team win to cure the girl.

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by SportsRacer

God was too busy helping an NBA team win to cure the girl.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

What if your religion called for you to go kill American soldiers or kill Muslims, or kill heretics, or kill pagans, or burn witches at the stake and kill anyone who spoke against the church. Are you sure you could still speak and act so boldly?

Absolutely. First, I would not join a religion that called for me to kill ANYONE. Secondly, I do believe that self defense is acceptable to fight for. In this particular case, common sense prevails and says that watching your child vomit and the other effects of this lack of insulin for a month is wrong and needs to be punished.