For all you football experts that wanted Croyle...it's all about the Oline - Page 8

chris · 10-07-2007, 01:32 PM

With this line, Farve, Brady, whomever, would look bad.

Forget about Croyle.

Shift your boring whining to the awful Oline.

keg in kc · 10-07-2007, 05:05 PM

I think the pass protection has been fine. We've given up 12 sacks in 5 games, which would come out to about 38 on the season. That's not good, but it's also not horrible (actually, about the same as last year, when we gave up 41). But watching the games, I'm not sitting here thinking "damn, that poor Huard's under a lot of heat". He seems to have plenty of time to throw more often than not, at least when he isn't dumping it off .5 seconds after the snap.

I think the run blocking has been the primary problem, and I believe that's in large part the result of defenses not respecting the ability of our offense to go downfield. It's simple math: they put more guys out there to stop the run than we have blockers. And let's face it, we got spoiled having the best line in the league for a long time. The reality is that, most often than not, 5 linemen and 1/2 TEs are not going to handle a front 7 and a safety (or two) poised to stop the run. We don't even have a blocking fullback, which just exacerbates the problem. I think the fact that the line isn't blocking like they were in their heyday doesn't mean they're 'bad' necessarily, it just means they aren't Roaf, Waters, Wiegmann, Shields and (insert name here).

Either way, until we make teams pay for stacking the line on us, we aren't going to be able to run the ball. I still think this line is better than last year, and I think it will continue to get better as the year goes on. But something has to be done to open up the passing game, because we're back to where we need to open the run with the pass.

Coach · 10-07-2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

The difference between 6th, 7th and undrafted free agents versus top 10 draft choices is huge. It would be unconscionable to activate players for the practice squad and start them over the current veterans.

That didn't stop Jarrad Page from last year. Besides, the only way you're gonna make a solid O-line is to build it through the draft.

Shag · 10-07-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

You can't be serious.

Croyle's two drives have consisted of 90 percent checkdowns. He threw two deep passes down the sideline that were basically both a wing and a prayer.

You truly are clueless. A wing and a prayer? The first long pass he threw (week two) was absolutely perfect - couldn't have been thrown any better. The second pass (today), he was on the run, and threw an on-target pass, 35 yards downfield, at full scramble - a pass Huard couldn't dream of throwing. "Wing and a prayer" my ass - that's Huard's specialty.

You claim that he's going to get hurt - BS. It's not like Huard, who makes his reads 50% slower, has taken many big hits. The pass protection is pretty decent, for the most part. Plus, watch Croyle - he's SO much calmer under pressure. He'll step up in the pocket to buy time, while actually going through his reads. He'll push the ball downfield, only checking down when necessary. He can use his feet to buy time, and actually has the ability to throw on the run. He uses the checkdown as it's intended - as a last resort. Unlike Huard, who uses the checkdown as his primary read...

You're a blind fool if you're still clamoring for Huard...

Shag · 10-07-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris

Aah, today was because of prevent defense.

lmao - I was waiting for that one. You can use that excuse all you want, but it is what it is - he can't control the situation he's given. Twice, Croyle has come in to relieve an "injured" Huard. Twice, Croyle has moved the team at will. Twice, the entire offense seemed to come alive with Croyle in the huddle.

Let's not forget that Croyle drove the team to a TD today. Once you're in the red zone, there is no more "prevent" - the defense has run out of field. He completed a long pass, on the run, at the sideline - which the "prevent" is designed to prevent. He scored a TD against 7 DBs. Writing off what he did today "because of prevent defense" is incredibly short-sighted.

movinbones · 10-07-2007, 05:48 PM

This thread is reeruned. It has nothing to do with anyone's argument for playing Croyle.

chris · 10-07-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shag

lmao - I was waiting for that one. You can use that excuse all you want, but it is what it is - he can't control the situation he's given. Twice, Croyle has come in to relieve an "injured" Huard. Twice, Croyle has moved the team at will. Twice, the entire offense seemed to come alive with Croyle in the huddle.

Let's not forget that Croyle drove the team to a TD today. Once you're in the red zone, there is no more "prevent" - the defense has run out of field. He completed a long pass, on the run, at the sideline - which the "prevent" is designed to prevent. He scored a TD against 7 DBs. Writing off what he did today "because of prevent defense" is incredibly short-sighted.

Good points! i stand corrected.

keg in kc · 10-07-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach

the only way you're gonna make a solid O-line is to build it through the draft.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the all-world line we had here from '03-'05 was not built through the draft. Will Shields was the only draft pick on it, in fact. Roaf was a trade, Waters was a free agent pickup who was originally an undrafted tight end picked up by Dallas, Wiegmann was a free agent signing, and we had a revolving door at right tackle (in terms of personnel, not performance...).

That may actually be the problem now; we built a line that was probably an unbelievably lucky mix of people. We've been acting like we could do it again, make chicken soup out of...you know.

Although I think the real problem we have still boils down to 5 years of horrible drafting by Vermeil et al. While the picks were primarily on the defensive side of the ball, the fact that we missed on all those picks hurts the team at large, not just that particular unit. It means we have to fill holes on both sides of the ball in free agency, which weakens the team as a whole.

And that's really what this year amounts to: a team in the middle of rebuilding. Some pieces are in place, but we still have a way to go.

movinbones · 10-07-2007, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the all-world line we had here from '03-'05 was not built through the draft. Will Shields was the only draft pick on it, in fact. Roaf was a trade, Waters was a free agent pickup who was originally an undrafted tight end picked up by Dallas, Wiegmann was a free agent signing, and we had a revolving door at right tackle (in terms of personnel, not performance...).

That may actually be the problem now; we built a line that was probably an unbelievably lucky mix of people. We've been acting like we could do it again, make chicken soup out of...you know.

Although I think the real problem we have still boils down to 5 years of horrible drafting by Vermeil et al. While the picks were primarily on the defensive side of the ball, the fact that we missed on all those picks hurts the team at large, not just that particular unit. It means we have to fill holes on both sides of the ball in free agency, which weakens the team as a whole.

And that's really what this year amounts to: a team in the middle of rebuilding. Some pieces are in place, but we still have a way to go.

Good post.

Coach · 10-07-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the all-world line we had here from '03-'05 was not built through the draft. Will Shields was the only draft pick on it, in fact. Roaf was a trade, Waters was a free agent pickup who was originally an undrafted tight end picked up by Dallas, Wiegmann was a free agent signing, and we had a revolving door at right tackle (in terms of personnel, not performance...).

That may actually be the problem now; we built a line that was probably an unbelievably lucky mix of people. We've been acting like we could do it again, make chicken soup out of...you know.

Although I think the real problem we have still boils down to 5 years of horrible drafting by Vermeil et al. While the picks were primarily on the defensive side of the ball, the fact that we missed on all those picks hurts the team at large, not just that particular unit. It means we have to fill holes on both sides of the ball in free agency, which weakens the team as a whole.

And that's really what this year amounts to: a team in the middle of rebuilding. Some pieces are in place, but we still have a way to go.

Maybe it's time to try Niswanger, Taylor and Svitek on the right side. They have young legs. Might as well see what they can do. We still have that Stollings guy IIRC as well.

Really, you can't tell how good your draft pick can be unless you give them a chance to perform on real game days. Pre-season can only do so little.

10-07-2007, 01:32 PM
chris Always Ask "Why" Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Park City; Two Rivers Casino cash: $10004900	For all you football experts that wanted Croyle...it's all about the Oline With this line, Farve, Brady, whomever, would look bad. Forget about Croyle. Shift your boring whining to the awful Oline.
Posts: 1,340

10-07-2007, 05:05 PM	#106
keg in kc oxymoron Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: OP/KC/Whatever Casino cash: $9556299	I think the pass protection has been fine. We've given up 12 sacks in 5 games, which would come out to about 38 on the season. That's not good, but it's also not horrible (actually, about the same as last year, when we gave up 41). But watching the games, I'm not sitting here thinking "damn, that poor Huard's under a lot of heat". He seems to have plenty of time to throw more often than not, at least when he isn't dumping it off .5 seconds after the snap. I think the run blocking has been the primary problem, and I believe that's in large part the result of defenses not respecting the ability of our offense to go downfield. It's simple math: they put more guys out there to stop the run than we have blockers. And let's face it, we got spoiled having the best line in the league for a long time. The reality is that, most often than not, 5 linemen and 1/2 TEs are not going to handle a front 7 and a safety (or two) poised to stop the run. We don't even have a blocking fullback, which just exacerbates the problem. I think the fact that the line isn't blocking like they were in their heyday doesn't mean they're 'bad' necessarily, it just means they aren't Roaf, Waters, Wiegmann, Shields and (insert name here). Either way, until we make teams pay for stacking the line on us, we aren't going to be able to run the ball. I still think this line is better than last year, and I think it will continue to get better as the year goes on. But something has to be done to open up the passing game, because we're back to where we need to open the run with the pass.
Posts: 58,682

10-07-2007, 05:48 PM	#110
movinbones Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: O Fallon,MO Casino cash: $9994900	This thread is reeruned. It has nothing to do with anyone's argument for playing Croyle.
Posts: 211