Royals ***OFFICIAL Royals vs. Mariners thread for 7/13*** - Page 8

**Bowser** · 07-13-2008, 11:39 AM

How about a sweep? I think I'd be fine with that. Look for the Mariners to come out swwinging after losing in walk-off style yesterday.

BigRock · 07-13-2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sure-Oz

Yep, that play was saved by Aviles from getting worse, it was Bucks fault that the mariners won the game....

Maybe this should be broken down into a math equation.

Aviles dropping a pop-up to put the leadoff man on 2nd with no outs in a tie-game

+

Aviles not even looking at home plate, instead throwing to 2nd where there was no chance of a play

>

Buck overthrowing 3rd on the rundown, which would have been entirely meaningless if Aviles just had thrown home to get the lead runner.

**DeezNutz** · 07-13-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRock

Maybe this should be broken down into a math equation.

Aviles dropping a pop-up to put the leadoff man on 2nd with no outs in a tie-game

+

Aviles not even looking at home plate, instead throwing to 2nd where there was no chance of a play

>

Buck overthrowing 3rd on the rundown, which would have been entirely meaningless if Aviles just had thrown home to get the lead runner.

Didn't the runner steal third after Aviles' drop (I was working during the game)? Granted, runners generally take third on a pitcher.

I don't think Buck himself is responsible for the loss, but not executing a run-down is bush. Aviles, though he should have definitely thrown home, did a nice job of even catching Buck's over-throw. Aviles and Buck seem to have worked together today to **** up defensively in the ninth.

BigRock · 07-13-2008, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Didn't the runner steal third after Aviles' drop (I was working during the game)? Granted, runners generally take third on a pitcher.

They bunted him over.

Sure-Oz · 07-13-2008, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRock

Maybe this should be broken down into a math equation.

Aviles dropping a pop-up to put the leadoff man on 2nd with no outs in a tie-game

+

Aviles not even looking at home plate, instead throwing to 2nd where there was no chance of a play

>

Buck overthrowing 3rd on the rundown, which would have been entirely meaningless if Aviles just had thrown home to get the lead runner.

Apologies...i never saw the actual plays live and just now saw the replays, i heard hte end of the game on radio driving back from kirksville....they made it sound like it was all bucks faul and never explained Aviles had a shot at home.

Equal faults on both, i just dont get where aviles was there.

Either way, our guys continue to have brainfarts

**DeezNutz** · 07-13-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRock

They bunted him over.

Word. Like I said, was not totally focused on the game.

BigRock · 07-13-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sure-Oz

never explained Aviles had a shot at home.

Seeing this pic, it looks even worse than it did live.

SithCeNtZ · 07-13-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

T PCT Rank G GS PO A E TC DP TP PB
Barajas,R TOR R .997 2 53 47 348 28 1 377 3 0 2

There's no way that Barajas can be worse than Buck. Statistically he is the second best defensive catcher in the American League. Buck is ranked eighth. Statistics don't lie; they're all that matter.

http://pressbox.mlb.com/pressbox/sta...=/r/indfl2_103

You are correct that Doomy was probably off on some of the catchers he listed. Barajas has probably been slightly better than Buck, but Doomy's point is still well within reason.

Looking at offensive numbers with catchers(100 AB min) he ranks:
24 out 48 in avg
24/48 in OBP
24/48 in Slugging
25/48 in OPS
T-18/48 in HR's
And in the most important stat of all that renders all other stats irrelevent!
T-17/48 in RBI's

Doomy is correct, Buck is the poster boy for an average catcher in the league. He isn't great, but he isn't terrible either.

**DeezNutz** · 07-13-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRock

Seeing this pic, it looks even worse than it did live.

Did he not make a pretty nice play to catch the overthrow? Barehand, even? No? Serious questions.

KCUnited · 07-13-2008, 04:45 PM

Mike Aviles 3-4 with 2 RBIs

John Buck 1-4 with a throwing error in the top of the 9th

I'm not blaming it on anyone, but thats what the box score says.

Demonpenz · 07-13-2008, 04:47 PM

shit happens. We left alot of runners on base. Our Dh failed to get the ball out of the infield

**DeezNutz** · 07-13-2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SithCeNtZ

You are correct that Doomy was probably off on some of the catchers he listed. Barajas has probably been slightly better than Buck, but Doomy's point is still well within reason.

Looking at offensive numbers with catchers(100 AB min) he ranks:
24 out 48 in avg
24/48 in OBP
24/48 in Slugging
25/48 in OPS
T-18/48 in HR's
And in the most important stat of all that renders all other stats irrelevent!
T-17/48 in RBI's

Doomy is correct, Buck is the poster boy for an average catcher in the league. He isn't great, but he isn't terrible either.

We agree. Buck's ok, but he possesses some very frustrating deficiencies, like throwing out runners.

Statistics are important tools for analysis. But you seem to interpret them way too literally IMHO. Thus we have Jose Teahen. Evaluating performance is more subjective than this, or teams wouldn't waste so much money on silly things like scouts. You know, the people who watch the game. Why not just acquire the players with the best statistics, particularly those with a high OPS? The draft could be computer generated.

BigRock · 07-13-2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Did he not make a pretty nice play to catch the overthrow? Barehand, even? No? Serious questions.

He definitely made a good save on the ball. Although if he'd backed up Gordon right away, he wouldn't have had to make the lunging grab he did.

**DeezNutz** · 07-13-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRock

He definitely made a good save on the ball. Although if he'd backed up Gordon right away, he wouldn't have had to make the lunging grab he did.

Cool. I'm not sure why you're placing a greater percentage of blame on Aviles, however. Should he have caught the pop-up? Certainly. Should he have thrown home rather than to Grudz in no man's land? Definitely. But Buck has to throw a catchable ball to Gordon to record the out. To say that one mistake is worse than the other is difficult in this case.

Were you defending Buck primarily because of the feeding frenzy as the result of his **** up? If so, understandable.

Just as you've been stating that Aviles, by going home would have bailed out Buck, so too would Buck, by completing the run down, have taken Aviles off the hook. Seems to be a wash. Factor in the fact that Aviles had a couple of RBIs and it's understandable why so many posters were quick to place more blame at Buck's feet.

KCinNY · 07-13-2008, 05:33 PM

Anybody see the base stealer that Buck actually DID throw out today?

Missed 2nd base by 6 feet and Aviles made a great catch and tag for the out.

BigRock · 07-13-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Cool. I'm not sure why you're placing a greater percentage of blame on Aviles, however. Should he have caught the pop-up? Certainly. Should he have thrown home rather than to Grudz in no man's land? Definitely. But Buck has to throw a catchable ball to Gordon to record the out. To say that one mistake is worse than the other is difficult in this case.

Were you defending Buck primarily because of the feeding frenzy as the result of his **** up? If so, understandable.

Just as you've been stating that Aviles, by going home would have bailed out Buck, so too would Buck, by completing the run down, have taken Aviles off the hook. Seems to be a wash. Factor in the fact that Aviles had a couple of RBIs and it's understandable why so many posters were quick to place more blame at Buck's feet.

I'm not really trying to defend Buck at all. He screwed the pooch on what should have been an easy play.

But that runner was on the bases, and not sitting on the bench in the M's dugout, because of Aviles. And even with Buck's bad throw, the runner still could have been thrown out if Aviles doesn't (once again) lose his mind and throw to 2nd. Buck's error should have been a harmless footnote to a Royals' win.

Aviles was more to blame. It's not that I'm defending Buck, or trying to pile on Aviles (who I like), it's just the way it is. Sure, Aviles had a good game at the plate, but two costly mistakes in the 9th that cost the team a game tend to wipe a lot of that out.

From what Sure-Oz said about the radio coverage, I think a lot of people were probably listening to it and didn't see what happened.

07-13-2008, 11:39 AM
Bowser sorta mod-ish Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: KC North Casino cash: $2981616	*OFFICIAL Royals vs. Mariners thread for 7/13* How about a sweep? I think I'd be fine with that. Look for the Mariners to come out swwinging after losing in walk-off style yesterday.
Posts: 101,378

07-13-2008, 04:45 PM	#114
KCUnited Cheat Death Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Land of Drincoln Casino cash: $1748244	Mike Aviles 3-4 with 2 RBIs John Buck 1-4 with a throwing error in the top of the 9th I'm not blaming it on anyone, but thats what the box score says.
Posts: 34,233

07-13-2008, 04:47 PM	#115
Demonpenz Woman should only make babies Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Apartment "G UNIT!" Casino cash: $2692136	shit happens. We left alot of runners on base. Our Dh failed to get the ball out of the infield __________________
Posts: 54,356

07-13-2008, 05:33 PM	#119
KCinNY Chiefs Goon Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Center Ice Casino cash: $10008350	Anybody see the base stealer that Buck actually DID throw out today? Missed 2nd base by 6 feet and Aviles made a great catch and tag for the out.
Posts: 1,497