Chiefs Admitting Mistakes..key for the Chiefs franchise - Page 8

**petegz28** · 12-12-2011, 06:29 PM

Everyone makes mistakes. The best players, the best coaches, the best GM's, the best owners. They all make mistakes. But, what makes the best the best is they admit their mistakes, learn from their mistakes and make the necessary corrections.

This is a telling time for Clark and Pioli. Will they repeat the same mistakes they have made or will they understand they made some mistakes and learn from them? Typical of new owners and new GM's, they think they know more than anyone else about what they are doing. The recipie for success is rather simple in this league. Owner needs to hire GM and let him do his job and not meddle. GM needs to hire coach and let him do his job and not meddle.

What mistakes have Clark and Pioli made? Hindsight being 20/20 it's easy to see but that is how we judge our mistakes by looking back and learning.

1. Hiring Haley. Mistake? Most likley. No personal football experience, hot tempered, couldn't get along with people and ran off 2 OC's in 3 years and Muir would probably have only stuck around for the pension had Haley stayed.

2. Matt Cassel. Mistake? Yes but to be fair an honest one. More than the Chiefs were after Cassel and a lot, not all but a lot of the fan base was ok with bringing him in. Ok, fair enough. We have watched him for 3 years and learned he isn't the one.

3. Draft picks. Mistakes? Yes but all teams make them. Jackson was a mistake simply because we put him at a position he has never played and not really built to play. Dexter? Mistake. Never should have been drafted given the needs of the team. By the same token Pioli has made some good draft picks in Berry, Baldwin, Arenas and Moeaki.

4. Lack of team identity. Mistake? Yes but part of that is on the coaching staff as well as the front office. Pioli dictated we would be a 3-4 team when he came in before any coach was ever hired. That's a mistake. Let the coaches evaluate the talent, choose the best strategy for the talent that is there and the front office should cater to that. To elaborate further though I don't think a clear identity has ever been targeted for this team. One minute we want to be a power running team, the next a dink-dunk. One game we are blitzing like crazy, the next we are a pillow-soft zone.

5. Lack of roster depth. Mistake? Clearly. This falls on Pioli and Haley both. You have 3 QB's with a total experience level starting in the NFL of 2 1/2 years combined. No excuse there at all for any of them. None! No line depth on either side of the ball and no depth at LB. The secondary when healthy is fairly deep.

6. Brian Waters. Mistake? In hindsight, yes. I was not terribly upset that he left but when you let him go and he goes and starts for the NE Pats then you made a mistake.

Overall there has been a piss-poor display of leadership on this team from the front office to the coaching staff the defensse being the only exception. A head coach who can't get along with other coaches is a bad seed. Gailey gets ran off. Ok, fair enough. But you do it one week before a season starts? Terrible leadership. Weis gets ran off. Fair enough but now you have gone through 2 OC's in as many years. Not a good track record. Muir has the playcalling taken away from him. Terrible. Muir was a terrible decision in the first place but you gave the guy the job you have to stand by your decisions. When the head coach starts meddling at that level with the coordinators it sends the wrong message to the players.

Pioli has his work cut out for him and should be on the hot seat. He needs to bring in a coach who knows WTF he is doing and listen to that coach. If that coach doesn't want Cassel then Cassel is gone. If that coach wants to draft a NT and not a flashy "playmaker" then the NT gets drafted. No coach worth a **** is going to want to coach this team if he can't have his say on the players. I am not saying that Pioli has to be totally absent in that decision making but he needs to give deferrence to the coach.

New owner, 1st time GM and 1st time head coach is obviously not a good combination. Bring in a good coach. Make a commitment to draft players that are going to solidify this team for the next decade, meaning QB and line players on both sides of the ball. If that means we go back to a 4-3 then sobeit. Unless you are going to cut Dorsey and Jackson going to a 4-3 is probably the best decision. You have 3 stud WR's. Get a QB that can get them the ball and get lineman that can block for him. Again, no coach worth anything is going to want to coach a team where he is continually forced to draft players that don't fit the identity. The "right 53" has to begin with players who can actually play the position they are drafted to play.

Above and beyond all, at this point you have to get a coach with some credibilty. No college come-ups. No former golfers. No retreads with failing records though they have already said they are going to serious look at Romeo. Get a coach that has football experience and has been successful at some point in his career. Romeo would fall into that category as a DC but his time in Cleveland hurts him. Then again I don't think Cleveland has had a good team since Marty left. Get off the Pats\Parcell buddy system.

**petegz28** · 12-12-2011, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

Well man I think the times of defenses like that are over. I think we could be more aggressive like we were in the Steeler and first half pats game tho and be very successful.

It's been stated before , but Berry really brings this defense together.

Oh no question Berry adds tremendously to the D. But we need another Berry. I remember having Kevin Ross and Deron Cherry. That's what we need. You want to be a shutdown defense you have to have 2 safetys that can cover and play the run and hit mother ****ers so hard they go back to the huddle saying "don't run that play again". We have 1 of those safetys and we have one of those corners in Carr. I don't think Flowers can play a true bump-run but he can play a press. Carr on the other hand needs to take his game to the next step and be a James Hasty and start laying ****ers out at the line. I think he can do that.

O.city · 12-12-2011, 08:20 PM

You aren't going to have two safeties playing the run. Ever.

**petegz28** · 12-12-2011, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

You aren't going to have two safeties playing the run. Ever.

No but you have to have two safeties that can play both. That was the beauty of Ross, Cherry and Collins. They could do it all so you didn't lose anything when one had to play up and one had to play back.

**petegz28** · 12-12-2011, 08:24 PM

I remember when we played and beat the "Greatest Show on Turf" at Arrowhead and kicked their ass with Grbac. The very first play of the game Hasty picked off Warner over the middle. Yes, that's right, a CB picked off a pass over the middle.

Then like the next series Warner went to kind of a quick out about 4 yards downfield to his left and the ball hit the ground because the WR and Hasty were still at the line with the WR laying on the ground. That's the kind of shit I want to see out of this defense.

**petegz28** · 12-12-2011, 08:33 PM

anyway, back to the OP, I think perhaps the last 3 years were an unfortunate but necessary evil given the circumstances. Lots of noobs running this team and they "thought" they had it figured out. They thought their way was the right way even though history and to a degree common sense dictated otherwise. Ok, what's done is done. Can't change it no matter how badly we want too. We have Dex, we don't have Cody. We don't have a QB worth a squirt of piss. We don't have an o-line that is anything to speak of and we have one good RB who is broken and may not ever return to his old self and even if he did, he is not an every down back.

hopefully now the Chief Gods will bestow some sense upon our front office and they will figure it out, make some good draft choices though I don't expect all their picks to hit, get a new QB even if that means keeping Cassel or Orton for one more year to groom, though I'd just prefer to toss the rookie in and let him go, and get a NT and some lineman that will make a difference.

aturnis · 12-12-2011, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega

The receivers didn't the last month.

Source? Haven't read that one anywhere yet...

aturnis · 12-12-2011, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

The bad move is hiring a coach and forcing him into a scheme he doesn't believe in, or limiting your coaching search to guys that only run the 34.

Hire the best coach, and let HIM dictate what scheme you run.

If that means a switch to the 43, so ****ing be it.

Hiring a less qualified coach just because he's willing to run a 34 is just as big a mistake.

I agree, but disagree. This defense is too good as it is, without Eric Berry or a good NT mind you. I'm sure there are plenty of offensive minded coaches who would have no problem running a 3-4, especially with the popularity it gained in recent years.

What coach is out there that is so worth switching to a 4-3?

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-12-2011, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aturnis

I agree, but disagree. This defense is too good as it is, without Eric Berry or a good NT mind you. I'm sure there are plenty of offensive minded coaches who would have no problem running a 3-4, especially with the popularity it gained in recent years.

What coach is out there that is so worth switching to a 4-3?

FWIW, I'm not advocating one or the other.

I'm just sick of forcing schemes on coaches, or eliminating coaches based on scheme.

Hire the BEST coach.

**petegz28** · 12-12-2011, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aturnis

I agree, but disagree. This defense is too good as it is, without Eric Berry or a good NT mind you. I'm sure there are plenty of offensive minded coaches who would have no problem running a 3-4, especially with the popularity it gained in recent years.

What coach is out there that is so worth switching to a 4-3?

Yes but a good head coach is going to listen to his DC. And if the DC says the 3-4 is our best way to go then a good head coach is going to say ok and help draft or sign players to fit that role.

No good leader is going to come in and start dictating tactical decsions. That's what bad coaches do. A good head coach is going to come in with a strategy and tell his DC's to execute that strategy however they see the best way to do it.

A good head coach is going to say "I want an attacking defense", not "I want a 4-3 or a 3-4". However, before he even does that, a good head coach is going to evaluate his players and decide what the best strategy for that group should be. You can't say you want to be a ball-control offense if you don't have a big, powerful line. You can't say you want to be an attacking defense if you don't have the players to execute it.

Nonetheless, the coach should decide and dictate the strategy based on his evaluation of players and input from his coordinators. Nothing should be pre-meditated to a tactical level.

aturnis · 12-12-2011, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petegz28

Yes but a good head coach is going to listen to his DC. And if the DC says the 3-4 is our best way to go then a good head coach is going to say ok and help draft or sign players to fit that role.

No good leader is going to come in and start dictating tactical decsions. That's what bad coaches do. A good head coach is going to come in with a strategy and tell his DC's to execute that strategy however they see the best way to do it.

A good head coach is going to say "I want an attacking defense", not "I want a 4-3 or a 3-4". However, before he even does that, a good head coach is going to evaluate his players and decide what the best strategy for that group should be. You can't say you want to be a ball-control offense if you don't have a big, powerful line. You can't say you want to be an attacking defense if you don't have the players to execute it.

Nonetheless, the coach should decide and dictate the strategy based on his evaluation of players and input from his coordinators. Nothing should be pre-meditated to a tactical level.

Most coaches would probably want to bring along their own DC... That DC will want to install whichever damn scheme he likes most, despite the talent here.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-12-2011, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aturnis

Most coaches would probably want to bring along their own DC... That DC will want to install whichever damn scheme he likes most, despite the talent here.

Yep, most coaches would want to hire their own staff.

Which is exactly why a Pioli-puppet like Crennel, McD or Ferentz will get the job.

**petegz28** · 12-12-2011, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aturnis

Most coaches would probably want to bring along their own DC... That DC will want to install whichever damn scheme he likes most, despite the talent here.

I agree. But that doesn't make them a good head coach. A good head coach will always evaluate before he dictates. If the new coach brings in his own guys and long as they have had previous success then ok, that's how it goes. But to bring guys in at that level simply as a power play is not the sign of a good leader.

**petegz28** · 12-12-2011, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Yep, most coaches would want to hire their own staff.

Which is exactly why a Pioli-puppet like Crennel, McD or Ferentz will get the job.

I mean, to a point we have seen this firsthand with Vermeil. He brought in Saunders. But we were replacing Jimmy "don't call me slim-jim" Rae so there was hardly anything to argue about there.

chiefzilla1501 · 12-12-2011, 09:10 PM

Question....
Was moving to the 2-gap 3-4 a mistake? Or do we think there's a future here.

It seems to work incredibly well. But there seem to be games like Sunday where it's just off-the-charts bad. Is it exhaustion? Poor preparation? Did the Pats' 3-4 fail because they failed to get pass rushers?

Or are there teams who just have an answer to it? It does seem like our 3-4 can bully the shit out of a bad o-line in the pass rush, but we get absolutely swallowed up by good ones. Is that because we have too many linemen who aren't pass rushers?

**petegz28** · 12-12-2011, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Question....
Was moving to the 2-gap 3-4 a mistake? Or do we think there's a future here.

It seems to work incredibly well. But there seem to be games like Sunday where it's just off-the-charts bad. Is it exhaustion? Poor preparation? Did the Pats' 3-4 fail because they failed to get pass rushers?

Or are there teams who just have an answer to it? It does seem like our 3-4 can bully the shit out of a bad o-line in the pass rush, but we get absolutely swallowed up by good ones. Is that because we have too many linemen who aren't pass rushers?

I think any defense can work if you have the right players for the scheme. Our problems this year stem from multiple problems.

1. Our training camp and pre-season would have made a good Yoga infomercial

2. We don't really have the players on the line to play a 3-4

3. We play too much coverage and not enough attack

4. The defense is on the field the majority of the game

5. When they started kicking ass Haley insisted on the Palko-led RRPP offense thus disheartening the defense making them question WTF they were playing so hard?

12-12-2011, 06:29 PM
petegz28 Supporter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Olathe, Ks Casino cash: $-1065873	Admitting Mistakes..key for the Chiefs franchise Everyone makes mistakes. The best players, the best coaches, the best GM's, the best owners. They all make mistakes. But, what makes the best the best is they admit their mistakes, learn from their mistakes and make the necessary corrections. This is a telling time for Clark and Pioli. Will they repeat the same mistakes they have made or will they understand they made some mistakes and learn from them? Typical of new owners and new GM's, they think they know more than anyone else about what they are doing. The recipie for success is rather simple in this league. Owner needs to hire GM and let him do his job and not meddle. GM needs to hire coach and let him do his job and not meddle. What mistakes have Clark and Pioli made? Hindsight being 20/20 it's easy to see but that is how we judge our mistakes by looking back and learning. 1. Hiring Haley. Mistake? Most likley. No personal football experience, hot tempered, couldn't get along with people and ran off 2 OC's in 3 years and Muir would probably have only stuck around for the pension had Haley stayed. 2. Matt Cassel. Mistake? Yes but to be fair an honest one. More than the Chiefs were after Cassel and a lot, not all but a lot of the fan base was ok with bringing him in. Ok, fair enough. We have watched him for 3 years and learned he isn't the one. 3. Draft picks. Mistakes? Yes but all teams make them. Jackson was a mistake simply because we put him at a position he has never played and not really built to play. Dexter? Mistake. Never should have been drafted given the needs of the team. By the same token Pioli has made some good draft picks in Berry, Baldwin, Arenas and Moeaki. 4. Lack of team identity. Mistake? Yes but part of that is on the coaching staff as well as the front office. Pioli dictated we would be a 3-4 team when he came in before any coach was ever hired. That's a mistake. Let the coaches evaluate the talent, choose the best strategy for the talent that is there and the front office should cater to that. To elaborate further though I don't think a clear identity has ever been targeted for this team. One minute we want to be a power running team, the next a dink-dunk. One game we are blitzing like crazy, the next we are a pillow-soft zone. 5. Lack of roster depth. Mistake? Clearly. This falls on Pioli and Haley both. You have 3 QB's with a total experience level starting in the NFL of 2 1/2 years combined. No excuse there at all for any of them. None! No line depth on either side of the ball and no depth at LB. The secondary when healthy is fairly deep. 6. Brian Waters. Mistake? In hindsight, yes. I was not terribly upset that he left but when you let him go and he goes and starts for the NE Pats then you made a mistake. Overall there has been a piss-poor display of leadership on this team from the front office to the coaching staff the defensse being the only exception. A head coach who can't get along with other coaches is a bad seed. Gailey gets ran off. Ok, fair enough. But you do it one week before a season starts? Terrible leadership. Weis gets ran off. Fair enough but now you have gone through 2 OC's in as many years. Not a good track record. Muir has the playcalling taken away from him. Terrible. Muir was a terrible decision in the first place but you gave the guy the job you have to stand by your decisions. When the head coach starts meddling at that level with the coordinators it sends the wrong message to the players. Pioli has his work cut out for him and should be on the hot seat. He needs to bring in a coach who knows WTF he is doing and listen to that coach. If that coach doesn't want Cassel then Cassel is gone. If that coach wants to draft a NT and not a flashy "playmaker" then the NT gets drafted. No coach worth a **** is going to want to coach this team if he can't have his say on the players. I am not saying that Pioli has to be totally absent in that decision making but he needs to give deferrence to the coach. New owner, 1st time GM and 1st time head coach is obviously not a good combination. Bring in a good coach. Make a commitment to draft players that are going to solidify this team for the next decade, meaning QB and line players on both sides of the ball. If that means we go back to a 4-3 then sobeit. Unless you are going to cut Dorsey and Jackson going to a 4-3 is probably the best decision. You have 3 stud WR's. Get a QB that can get them the ball and get lineman that can block for him. Again, no coach worth anything is going to want to coach a team where he is continually forced to draft players that don't fit the identity. The "right 53" has to begin with players who can actually play the position they are drafted to play. Above and beyond all, at this point you have to get a coach with some credibilty. No college come-ups. No former golfers. No retreads with failing records though they have already said they are going to serious look at Romeo. Get a coach that has football experience and has been successful at some point in his career. Romeo would fall into that category as a DC but his time in Cleveland hurts him. Then again I don't think Cleveland has had a good team since Marty left. Get off the Pats\Parcell buddy system.
Posts: 132,455

12-12-2011, 08:20 PM	#107
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $-695936	You aren't going to have two safeties playing the run. Ever.
Posts: 84,211

12-12-2011, 08:24 PM	#109
petegz28 Supporter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Olathe, Ks Casino cash: $-1065873	I remember when we played and beat the "Greatest Show on Turf" at Arrowhead and kicked their ass with Grbac. The very first play of the game Hasty picked off Warner over the middle. Yes, that's right, a CB picked off a pass over the middle. Then like the next series Warner went to kind of a quick out about 4 yards downfield to his left and the ball hit the ground because the WR and Hasty were still at the line with the WR laying on the ground. That's the kind of shit I want to see out of this defense.
Posts: 132,455

12-12-2011, 08:33 PM	#110
petegz28 Supporter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Olathe, Ks Casino cash: $-1065873	anyway, back to the OP, I think perhaps the last 3 years were an unfortunate but necessary evil given the circumstances. Lots of noobs running this team and they "thought" they had it figured out. They thought their way was the right way even though history and to a degree common sense dictated otherwise. Ok, what's done is done. Can't change it no matter how badly we want too. We have Dex, we don't have Cody. We don't have a QB worth a squirt of piss. We don't have an o-line that is anything to speak of and we have one good RB who is broken and may not ever return to his old self and even if he did, he is not an every down back. hopefully now the Chief Gods will bestow some sense upon our front office and they will figure it out, make some good draft choices though I don't expect all their picks to hit, get a new QB even if that means keeping Cassel or Orton for one more year to groom, though I'd just prefer to toss the rookie in and let him go, and get a NT and some lineman that will make a difference.
Posts: 132,455

12-12-2011, 09:10 PM	#119
chiefzilla1501 In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2008 Casino cash: $-1725503	Question.... Was moving to the 2-gap 3-4 a mistake? Or do we think there's a future here. It seems to work incredibly well. But there seem to be games like Sunday where it's just off-the-charts bad. Is it exhaustion? Poor preparation? Did the Pats' 3-4 fail because they failed to get pass rushers? Or are there teams who just have an answer to it? It does seem like our 3-4 can bully the shit out of a bad o-line in the pass rush, but we get absolutely swallowed up by good ones. Is that because we have too many linemen who aren't pass rushers?
Posts: 51,650