Chiefs The myth of Pioli - Page 9

B_Ambuehl · 12-07-2009, 01:12 PM

LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0

This time it’s personnel
Building to collapse
By Ron Borges
Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago
+ Recent Articles

MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner.

That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21.

Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro
football.

It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way.

Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday.

While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL.

These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots.

“It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him.

Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now.

Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom?

They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom?

Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom?

Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses?

That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change.

“We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.”

The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it.

“We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too.

“Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.”

That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.

Mecca · 12-07-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

How many ****ing times does the same false choice have to be trotted out?

Would we be demonstrably better in W's and L's had we drafted a QB @ 3, sat him for a year behind a vet/Croyle, and drafted heavily to the strength of the draft--OL, and stayed in a 4-3

No.

Would this team be showing signs of improvement towards the end of the year as younger players got significant run over 30+ year old broke dick nothings?

I think a case could be made.

Would that be infinitely better long term for the purposes of evaluating the young players that we do have?

Yes.

If this year is an evaluation year, then BRING IN SOME MOTHER****ERS WHO WILL STILL BE HERE WHEN THE EVALUATIONS WILL MATTER.

We have a really stupid fan base that can't understand basic logic that is what this forum has taught me.

But hey drink that koolaid, right now Pioli's first year on the job is an epic fail. Shit draft, shit fa, but if someone wants to tell themselves different they can but the results are there. Our coaching staff sucks, our head coach is a reerun that screams like a woman on her period.

Mecca · 12-07-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefFan

Moving away from the gimmick spread offense is already a step in the right direction. Why is so hard to fathom, that there would be growing pains along the way?

Do you have reading comprehension skills?

Where is the progress? Where is a nice core player Scott Pioli got us to build upon?

No one was asking for a good year but this idea that because we didn't expect that means everyone can completely suck and it's ok is stupid as hell.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-07-2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefFan

Moving away from the gimmick spread offense is already a step in the right direction. Why is so hard to fathom, that there would be growing pains along the way?

It's not hard to fathom at all - it was expected - considering they brought in a gimmick, spread offense QB and backed up the Brinks truck to his door.

They're trying to force square pegs into round holes all over the roster, instead of playing the system that best suits the players.

Basically, this so-called "evaluation year" was nothing but a wasted year - and maybe the rebuild actually starts in 2010.

**The Franchise** · 12-07-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

It's not hard to fathom at all - it was expected - considering they brought in a gimmick, spread offense QB and backed up the Brinks truck to his door.

They're trying to force square pegs into round holes all over the roster, instead of playing the system that best suits the players.

Basically, this so-called "evaluation year" was nothing but a wasted year - and maybe the rebuild actually starts in 2010.

Maybe this season was a whole "fooled you" kind of thing. Cassel will hold a press conference where he pulls off his mask and he reveals that he's actually Tom Brady in disguise.

**The Bad Guy** · 12-07-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Dude what have they done to start building a core? Where is the starting point?

There's nothing, we got a ****ing 5 tech DE in the top 5 and a shit ass QB a long with a coach that could probably be out coached on gameday by a madden player.

Man I'm really ****ing impressed with this "progress"

If we do turn it around, will you leave forever?

Mecca · 12-07-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

It's not hard to fathom at all - it was expected - considering they brought in a gimmick, spread offense QB and backed up the Brinks truck to his door.

They're trying to force square pegs into round holes all over the roster, instead of playing the system that best suits the players.

Basically, this so-called "evaluation year" was nothing but a wasted year - and maybe the rebuild actually starts in 2010.

I wonder how many Patriots guys we can sign, that'll be the ticket.

keg in kc · 12-07-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

So, they failed?

How many times can a guy say "it's too soon to tell" until the idea finally registers. It's not about 2009. It's never been about 2009. Whether they've succeeded or failed is a question that can't possibly be answered now.

**dirk digler** · 12-07-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Correct. And it's bullshit, no matter who says it or when.

I don't know about that. This organization has been in loser mode for 3 years so I understand when they say they want to change the mentality or the culture of losing. But the best way to do that is to win so we still have a ways to go.

Mecca · 12-07-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

If we do turn it around, will you leave forever?

Ah yes I am so sorry that being honest has ruined your day.

Scott Pioli has brought in 30 new players and found 2 guys that are worth a shit, at this rate we'll be good in...15 years.

FAX · 12-07-2009, 03:39 PM

Actually, I haven't noticed anyone claiming that the "results are there". Just people who feel it is somewhat premature to jam our panties up our asses and hold our breath until we turn blue.

Interestingly, Haley had it right all along. We don't have sufficient talent to overcome mistakes and turnovers. Let's wait and see what happens during the upcoming off-season. Maybe we'll see improvement in both the coaching staff and player personnel. I'm confident that neither Pioli nor Haley are particularly pleased with the gang of idiots we fielded this year. We know for sure that they're not shy when it comes to pulling the trigger on a change.

FAX

keg in kc · 12-07-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

We have a really stupid fan base that can't understand basic logic that is what this forum has taught me.

It's taught me that, too, but I have a feeling it's for completely different reasons.

Mecca · 12-07-2009, 03:41 PM

I really don't get why expecting Scott Pioli to find a handful of players for the future in his first year is asking to much but apparently it is.

**The Bad Guy** · 12-07-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Ah yes I am so sorry that being honest has ruined your day.

Scott Pioli has brought in 30 new players and found 2 guys that are worth a shit, at this rate we'll be good in...15 years.

You, honest. Ha.

I can handle someone coming at things with a perspective like Hamas, OTW, or Deez because they actually provide insight and don't act like 14 year old school girls.

siberian khatru · 12-07-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Most of the folks complaining weren't expecting more than 3-4 wins.

However, they were expecting to see progress, both at the team and individual level.

People can complain that Herm and Carl left them shit, but let's not forget that the new regime turned over 70% of the roster and brought in their handpicked players - and failed at every turn, save Succop and Chambers.

I've stayed out of these discussions for the last several months because I wanted to sit back with an open mind and see what developed.

But with December upon us, and a day removed from probably our worst game of the season, I am with OTWP here.

I haven't given up on Pioli and Haley by any means (although my criticism of Haley in the Woody Paige thread suggests he's on a shorter leash). I'm not of the "Pioli's a fraud" mindset yet. But I think it's inescapable that to this point, 3/4ths of the way into the season, we're spinning our wheels.

Maybe things will start clicking down the stretch. I hope so. But I am very disappointed to see so little development of individual players and the head coach.

Again, I wasn't expecting to see improvement measured by wins. I didn't expect them to "turn it around in one season" (ala the 2008 Dolphins). I fully expected utter crap early in the season. But I DID expect to see better football played in December than I did in September.

**The Bad Guy** · 12-07-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

I really don't get why expecting Scott Pioli to find a handful of players for the future in his first year is asking to much but apparently it is.

Yes, we all wanted him to find losers. That's exactly it.

12-07-2009, 01:12 PM
B_Ambuehl Veteran Join Date: Apr 2005 Casino cash: $9705405	The myth of Pioli LOL I wonder if he's sharing that loaded contract he got from Clark with Bellichik. http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/c...148&position=0 This time it’s personnel Building to collapse By Ron Borges Monday, December 7, 2009 - Updated 4m ago + Recent Articles MIAMI - Slowly but inexorably they are dissolving in front of our eyes. It is a process that didn’t begin this year for the New England Patriots [team stats] but way back in 2004, when nobody was paying attention to much else but the lifting of another Super Bowl banner. That season they won their third Super Bowl in four seasons but also began a widely ignored decline that manifested itself emphatically the past month and came to a sad head yesterday at Land Shark Stadium when they lost for the third time in four weeks, blowing a 14-0 lead to be beaten at the buzzer by the Miami Dolphins [team stats], 22-21. Five years ago, the Patriots draft garnered two starters, both on the first round. Not another player drafted in April of 2004 is still in uniform. That fallowness continued in 2005 when they again picked only two current starters. In 2006, they got only one, running back Laurence Maroney [stats], plus kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Then came the disaster of 2007, when only first-round pick Brandon Meriweather was good enough to still be in pro football. It is a bit early to know about 2008 but other than linebacker Jerod Mayo it again appears to be a sad lot. Second- and third-round picks Terrence Wheatley and Shawn Crable seldom see the field (Crable never has) and it is becoming increasingly more disastrous that cornerback Jonathan Wilhite sees so much of it. In those five years, the Patriots drafted 41 players and got eight starters, six on the first round. Otherwise they got what Bill Belichick kept saying was “value.” Yesterday, it didn’t look that way. Free agency has produced similarly skimpy results. Early hits were made on Rodney Harrison [stats] and Mike Vrabel, but after that the cupboard has been bare. They paid $30 million to Adalius Thomas and promised he could cover Ocho Cinco and sack Peyton Manning. He’s done neither. Shawn Springs signed a three-year, $10.5 million deal last spring and hasn’t played a snap in a month, while poor Wilhite struggles out of position because he’s a nickel back asked to play corner and rookie Darius Butler goes out and proves that while he has potential he never saw receivers at UConn like the ones catching balls behind and in front of him now, as Greg Camarillo did on fourth-and-6 on the game’s most critical play yesterday. While there were fruitful trades for Randy Moss and Wes Welker, they have netted big numbers but no championships, which is the same amount Moss’ teams have won since he first came into the NFL. These facts led New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton to tell his team before last Monday night’s game to be stout hearted and unafraid because “this isn’t the team that accomplished all that stuff.” Although his language was more colorful, his point was clear. These Patriots aren’t those Patriots. “It’s not for lack of effort,” center Dan Koppen said not long after Dolphins kicker Dan Carpenter nailed a 41-yard field goal and Tom Brady [stats] responded by throwing his second interception of the day with :35 to play as Cameron Wake hammered him. Koppen is right. The Patriots’ problems are not from lack of effort or lack of planning. They are from lack of talent. Not so lacking that they aren’t competitive, but lacking enough that most every game is a struggle now. Today everyone will say, “They need a better pass rush.” From whom? They will say, “They need better pass coverage.” From whom? Some will say they need to run the ball more to take pressure off Brady and his ailing ring finger, sore shoulder and aching ribs. By whom? Years ago, Chuck Fairbanks said it best. “It’s not about X’s and O’s. It’s about Jimmys and Joes.” For half a decade with the Pats people believed otherwise. In Bill We Trust became the motto, but does anyone honestly believe Bill Belichick forgot how to coach? A guy who has been watching game film since he was 6 now can’t break down film and discover a team’s weaknesses? That’s not the problem. The problem is he can’t ask people to do what they are not capable of doing. Or, worse, he does and you end up with Sam Aiken, a guy brought here to replace Larry Izzo [stats] on special teams, as your third receiver making one great catch for a touchdown and dropping two key ones. Did he have a great game or a disastrous one? Probably both, which is A) not his fault because he’s playing a role he was never supposed to, and B) not something Belichick can change. “We’ve got to find a way to play better football for 60 minutes in all phases,” Brady said. “Everyone has to focus on what they need to do better. I think that’s the most important thing. And be mentally tough to overcome adversity and if things don’t go your way, you’ve got to fight back. That’s a challenge for all of us. At times I think we do, and other times, I don’t think we fight very hard.” The latter is a damning statement, but it’s also part of what separates the 2001 Pats from today’s. Remaining undaunted is a skill too and not everyone has it. “We have leads in the second half, and leads in the fourth quarter,” Brady continued. “We’re just not closing the game out when we have the opportunity to. We’re searching for the answers, too. “Coach always says, ‘You get what you deserve.’ In too many ways, you don’t deserve to win when you make as many mistakes as we do.” That’s true whether you make them on the field or in the front office.
Posts: 2,613

12-07-2009, 03:39 PM	#130
FAX testing ... 1, 2, 3 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tennessee Casino cash: $6753759	Actually, I haven't noticed anyone claiming that the "results are there". Just people who feel it is somewhat premature to jam our panties up our asses and hold our breath until we turn blue. Interestingly, Haley had it right all along. We don't have sufficient talent to overcome mistakes and turnovers. Let's wait and see what happens during the upcoming off-season. Maybe we'll see improvement in both the coaching staff and player personnel. I'm confident that neither Pioli nor Haley are particularly pleased with the gang of idiots we fielded this year. We know for sure that they're not shy when it comes to pulling the trigger on a change. FAX
Posts: 44,492

12-07-2009, 03:41 PM	#132
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-512950	I really don't get why expecting Scott Pioli to find a handful of players for the future in his first year is asking to much but apparently it is.
Posts: 115,257