***Official St. Louis Cardinals 2013 Postseason Thread***

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The Season thread has started crapping out. Post about the Birds here.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

The Cardinals have eight legitimate ML starters. Some I hate, but they are legitimate starters, or will be:

Waino, Wacha, Miller, Lynn, Garcia*, Rosenthal, Martinez, and Kelly.

And guys like Lyons and Gast can give the team the 120 innings of bull**** that Jake Westbrook provided this year.

You know Garcia is going to get one of the starting spots. And does anyone think he is going to be successful? It would be great but even if he 100% physically healthy, we both know he is not cured of his tendancy to piss down his leg at the first sign of trouble.

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

This team needs to do the following:

Significantly improve its ability to hit LHP
Improve its defense

How are we suppose to improve hitting LHP? We already have a right heavy line up?

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

You can do both by trading for Tulowitzki.

How does the owner walk back his statement that basically said no way in hell we trade Tulo? What about his effort in that series when we played him? A fluke?

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Honestly, the team should do everything it can to keep Craig at 1B. He's had two serious lower body injuries now, both of which likely affect his mobility, but at this point he's the team's most consistent hitter.

Oddly, his injury makes Adams more expendable because it makes Craig less versatile, but unless he learns to hit LHP, Adams is the kind of guy that just kills teams in the postseason. He'll be a white Ryan Howard vs. Rzepczynski for the next half decade in those situations.

I agree. I like Craig a whole helluva lot better than Adams and the two major lower body injuries concerns me too. We need to keep him at 1B.

Ties back the Tulo trade. One young stud pitcher/Adams/AA prospect should get us Tulo, orrect?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

• You don't use Garcia as a playoff pitcher, you use him as a bitch to eat innings. He'll piss down his leg in October for sure, but he can't piss down his leg if he's not pitching then.
• Wong, Carpenter, Jay, Adams, Beltran, and Taveras are all either LHH or switch hitters w/ better numbers hitting as a lefty. Who is our RH power? Holliday, Craig, and...?? Molina's 22 HR year was an aberration, and you can't expect Freese to be 20+ anymore either. This team needs a RH bat that can punish LHP. Beltran was actually the sixth best hitter on the team vs. LHP. Molina hits LHP very well. Holliday ended up hitting it better in the second half, but his power against LHP was disappointing
• People used to think Carlos Beltran didn't try because it looked like he was loafing. I don't know how to read your interpretation of Tulowitzki's behavior because I didn't see it. Even if it was bad, maybe he just had a bad week.
• I see the team as having a few options: 1) Trading for Tulowitzki. He'll cost a lot in prospects and command a high salary, but he's the best player 2) Trade Kelly and something else for Aybar. He'll improve the SS position, but he's not going to be the bat we need 3) Trade for Profar. He has the highest upside, but he played like ass last year and will cost a lot in terms of prospects. 4) Trade for Jed Lowrie, J.J. Hardy. They'll cost a fair amount in prospects, have likely also peaked, and will be rentals. There just aren't any Kent Bottenfield deals to be had anymore.

[whoman69]

Hamas, biggest reason why I say they need to keep Beltran. Both Beltran and Craig are going to need rest to stay fresh. Plugging three guys into the two spots in 1B and RF does that. Plus it allows us another right handed bat against lefties.

Your scenario with Wong has Tulo replacing Freese's production, Wong replacing Kozma's. A plus on the first, probably a push on the second although its possible Wong can fail worse than Kozma based on his early numbers.

[VAChief]

Originally Posted by whoman69

Hamas, biggest reason why I say they need to keep Beltran. Both Beltran and Craig are going to need rest to stay fresh. Plugging three guys into the two spots in 1B and RF does that. Plus it allows us another right handed bat against lefties.

Your scenario with Wong has Tulo replacing Freese's production, Wong replacing Kozma's. A plus on the first, probably a push on the second although its possible Wong can fail worse than Kozma based on his early numbers.

Wong struggled obviously in his first call up, but I don't think it is a reach to say that he easily projects better offensively than Kosma. Kosma pretty much showed the same production as he did at AAA. Wong was strong at every level he played at then struggled as a call up. Much like Craig, Freese, Carpenter. He still as to prove it, but there is an upside far greater than what you would get with Kosma.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by whoman69

Your scenario with Wong has Tulo replacing Freese's production, Wong replacing Kozma's. A plus on the first, probably a push on the second although its possible Wong can fail worse than Kozma based on his early numbers.

No ****ing way. Kozma was the same Kozma he had always been in the minors. If Wong does the same thing, he's an All-Star. He has a helluva lot of room in between All-Star and the mendoza line.

He certaintly handled his bonehead rookie play in the WS like a veteran. Goes to his charector and work ethic. He is also Hawaiian and wants to be the first All-Star hawaiann in baseball.

Wong will be fine as our 2B for 10 years..............unless he is traded. But, you have to believe his trade value has dropped so much that you can't trade him at this time.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by whoman69

Hamas, biggest reason why I say they need to keep Beltran. Both Beltran and Craig are going to need rest to stay fresh. Plugging three guys into the two spots in 1B and RF does that. Plus it allows us another right handed bat against lefties.

Your scenario with Wong has Tulo replacing Freese's production, Wong replacing Kozma's. A plus on the first, probably a push on the second although its possible Wong can fail worse than Kozma based on his early numbers.

It is absolutely impossible for Wong to have a season as offensively inept as Kozma. Kozma had the second worst offensive season in franchise history this year. The only player who was ever worse was Leo Durocher in 1933.

Here's another way to put it: The difference between Kozma and Jon Jay is equivalent to the difference between Jon Jay and Paul Goldschmidt.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

No ****ing way. Kozma was the same Kozma he had always been in the minors. If Wong does the same thing, he's an All-Star. He has a helluva lot of room in between All-Star and the mendoza line.

He certaintly handled his bonehead rookie play in the WS like a veteran. Goes to his charector and work ethic. He is also Hawaiian and wants to be the first All-Star hawaiann in baseball.

Wong will be fine as our 2B for 10 years..............unless he is traded. But, you have to believe his trade value has dropped so much that you can't trade him at this time.

Unless Wong has access to a Terminator and Skynet's time displacement device, he will need to settle for being the second Hawaiian All-Star .

[whoman69]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

It is absolutely impossible for Wong to have a season as offensively inept as Kozma. Kozma had the second worst offensive season in franchise history this year. The only player who was ever worse was Leo Durocher in 1933.

Here's another way to put it: The difference between Kozma and Jon Jay is equivalent to the difference between Jon Jay and Paul Goldschmidt.

I realize he's a rookie and it was a limited stretch, but Wong looked totally lost at the plate. I realize he has the upside, but no guarantee that he will get there. He hit .153 with only one extra base hit in 59 AB, with only 3 BB. That's an OBP below the Mendoza line. Ratio of K/BB was 4/1. He is no sure thing.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by whoman69

I realize he's a rookie and it was a limited stretch, but Wong looked totally lost at the plate. I realize he has the upside, but no guarantee that he will get there. He hit .153 with only one extra base hit in 59 AB, with only 3 BB. That's an OBP below the Mendoza line. Ratio of K/BB was 4/1. He is no sure thing.

Of course he's not, but you're also trying to extrapolate his entire career based upon 60 ABs. I will guarantee you that every hitter in the Cardinal lineup has had stretches just as bad over 60 ABs.

Pete Kozma has been a terrible hitter since A ball. He was below league averages every step of the way, sometimes significantly so. Say what you will about Wong, but he has been consistently above average for the league.

Wong's probably just a solid starting 2B, and I am no fan of his, but your expectations aren't grounded in reality

[Pepe Silvia]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Dude....
2011 WS Championship
2012 one win from a WS
2013 two wins from a WS Championship

Even if we screw up every draft pick, we are still going to get another 5-6 years of opportunity to win a World Series.

If it weren't for Mizzou it wouldn't have hurt as bad, it was a horrible week.

[whoman69]

Hawaiian born all-stars:

Ron Darling
Sid Fernandez
Charlie Hough
Shane Victorino

He's not even close to being first, or second

[O.city]

Wong potentially brings golf glove d at 2 and a decent stick. Nothing above average at the plate, but average. He also is a base stealing threat, which is something we haven't had recently.


I'm really thinking it ends up being Tulo they target. The front office has stated they have the money and flexibility to add another core player this offseason. He'd be that.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

If it weren't for Mizzou it wouldn't have hurt as bad, it was a horrible week.

Blowing a 17 point lead at home in the fourth quarter, including giving up a conversion on 4th and Goal from the 15 and missing a 24 yard FG
Losing three straight WS games to get knocked out by the team with the biggest asshole fans this side of the Raiders
Losing your #1 targeted BB recruit, who also happens to be a legacy

Yeah, it was a shitty ****ing week.

[whoman69]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Of course he's not, but you're also trying to extrapolate his entire career based upon 60 ABs. I will guarantee you that every hitter in the Cardinal lineup has had stretches just as bad over 60 ABs.

Pete Kozma has been a terrible hitter since A ball. He was below league averages every step of the way, sometimes significantly so. Say what you will about Wong, but he has been consistently above average for the league.

Wong's probably just a solid starting 2B, and I am no fan of his, but your expectations aren't grounded in reality

I'm not trying to extrapolate anything. Willie Mays' first 60 AB were probably just as bad. You can't say that he is definitely going to be better than Kozma, because the big league record so far says he can be worse. He looked lost in the time he was in there.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I can say he's going to be better than Kozma because only one person, ever, in the history of the franchise has been worse over a 500 AB season.