Restating the obvious, Dorsey learned from Ted Thompson

[ct]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/04/03/packers-prefer-compensatory-picks-over-unrestricted-free-agents/


Packers General Manager Ted Thompson has a formula for building his team, and he’s sticking with it.

Thompson believes in building through the draft, not free agency, and that includes acquiring more draft picks by declining to sign unrestricted free agents. In the NFL, teams that lose more in free agency than they acquire get compensatory picks, and the Packers’ moves in free agency this year indicate that they’re already thinking about acquiring compensatory picks for next year. The NFL doesn’t public the precise formula used to determine compensatory picks, but the simple version is that if the unrestricted free agents you lose are better, higher-paid players than the unrestricted free agents you sign, then the NFL will compensate you the following year with compensatory picks.

As the Green Bay Press-Gazette points out, even the one big name the Packers have signed this offseason, Julius Peppers, was a free agent because he was released by the Bears, not because his previous contract expired. That means he won’t count as an unrestricted free agent addition for the Packers for the purpose of determining their compensatory picks next year.

Last year the Packers lost two key players, receiver Greg Jennings and linebacker Erik Walden, as unrestricted free agents. And the Packers didn’t sign any unrestricted free agents last year. As a result, this year they’re getting an extra third-round pick and an extra fifth-round pick as compensatory selections.

This year the Packers have again not signed away any players whose previous contract expired, but they have lost four players, center Evan Dietrich-Smith, receiver James Jones, defensive lineman C.J. Wilson and offensive lineman Marshall Newhouse. That means the Packers will almost certainly do well when the compensatory picks are passed out a year from now.

Building through the draft and declining to overspend in free agency would be a smart strategy even if the NFL didn’t have a compensatory pick system to reward frugal teams. But when compensatory picks are added to the equation, it’s easy to see why Thompson declines to go after free agents. The Packers have been successful this way. It’s surprising more teams haven’t copied them.


May not be popular here but Dorsey is doing exactly the same thing Thompson and Ozzie Newsome are doing, stockpile draft picks and let UFAs get overpaid elsewhere.

[TripleThreat]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I disagree. Wayne has been a steady presence, but Peyton has almost never had a good running game and he was largely throwing to very average receivers like Gonzalez or Collie. Not to mention bad defenses he had to carry.

The Cassel example isn't a good one. Cassel went 11-6, but keep in mind that Brady took that same team to a perfect season. Cassel won games that year because of insane talent, more than system. While Brady has had some years throwing to insane talent, he has had a ton of years where he's carried receivers like Amendola or Reche Caldwell to deep playoff runs. Look what he did last year, even missing Welker and two elite tight ends.

Sure, they have some talent around them. But their defenses haven't been good lately, and they have just as much success throwing to average talent as they have had throwing to elite talent.

Im not talking about Bradys insane talent around him tho, im talking about his coaching staff.. I think the reason they did insanely well this last year was because of the system as well as the QB.. I think Brady is the best QB of all time and can do it without any help at all, but to say he has no help around him and does it all himself is a vast understatement and then you are pretty much saying Bill Bellicheck and company are just average coaches if Tom does it all himself.

I think with Peyton you are forgetting Dallas Clark?? When peyton was throwing to Gonzalez everyone in fantasy worlds were thinking he was the next Top notch WR on the colts and then he became injury prone. Collie/Gonzalez/Wayne/Clark/Addai.. I like that surrounding talent cast imo.. Not adding in the years of Marvin Harrison..

Our topic of the quick discussion was alex smith needing help around him to succeed, and my quick points of comparison were the above.... These 2 great QB's have always had help around them wether it be the coaching staff being flawless (Patriots) or the colts/broncos giving peyton all the talent they could... Even Elway this year said he wanted to get Peyton more weapons to throw to.. You gotta give your QB pieces to play with, We cant just give Alex 6th round players and say do magic, that 6throunder probably cant beat the opposing DB off the ball...

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by mcaj22

that's a double edge sword

just like thinking 1 defensive player wont fix everything is no different than the other side of the coin that thinks a Sanders Commings/Hussain Abdullah is going to fix everything.

I don't think I've heard anyone say that. In fact, I don't think anyone who likes this 2014 approach thinks we're going to be better.

And the Ted Thompson Way in 2014, he signed 1 notable defensive player with the idea of "magically" fixing his defense next season so far. (actually two if you count keeping their in house FA to a contract as well)

So this idea that Ted Thompson doesn't spend is a farce. John Dorsey doesn't spend, so far that's true. I'd rather 1 quality FA with the money than 5 JAGs. Like Dorsey has done so far.

You're pointing to an exception, not the rule. Schneider in Seattle and Thompson in Green Bay have had pockets of free agent activity. But they are far less active than most teams are and most of their starting lineups were built through the draft. And a huge part of that is that these teams are not shy about letting unproven players step in and play. And they aren't afraid to have extremely quiet offseasons like the Chiefs have in 2014. In fact, a lot of great teams seem to be built that way. A few quiet offseasons, big free agent splurt, then quiet again. The Patriots are an excellent example of that.

As I've said before, Dorsey's strategy will work, just as Schneider's did in Seattle, IF the team drafts well. And I get people who are skeptical about that "if" and have every reason to. But the philosophy itself is sound.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Yes, I have said it many times. The pattern is long and consistent no matter what they say to the fans.

Carl never spent a first round pick on a QB in his 20 years. Both Pioli and Dorsey made the move to trade picks for one before they knew where the office mens room was located.

In the 54 years this team has been in existence, they have never successfully drafted and developed a QB. They haven't even really tried in 30.

edit, that is not really fair to Carl, as he did spend two second round picks early in his tenure trying to find one, but never a first.

The problem is there's no such thing as Chiefs football.

Chiefs football is hiring a coach off a SB team and trying to copy that model of success.

We did it with Marty trying to copy the 49'ers. And we traded for their QB's.
We did it with DV and the Rams and traded for one of their QB's.
We did it with Pioli and traded for one of the Pats QB's.

We don't come up with our own strategies - we try to copy everyone else's...

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by TripleThreat

Im not talking about Bradys insane talent around him tho, im talking about his coaching staff.. I think the reason they did insanely well this last year was because of the system as well as the QB.. I think Brady is the best QB of all time and can do it without any help at all, but to say he has no help around him and does it all himself is a vast understatement and then you are pretty much saying Bill Bellicheck and company are just average coaches if Tom does it all himself.

I think with Peyton you are forgetting Dallas Clark?? When peyton was throwing to Gonzalez everyone in fantasy worlds were thinking he was the next Top notch WR on the colts and then he became injury prone. Collie/Gonzalez/Wayne/Clark/Addai.. I like that surrounding talent cast imo.. Not adding in the years of Marvin Harrison..

Our topic of the quick discussion was alex smith needing help around him to succeed, and my quick points of comparison were the above.... These 2 great QB's have always had help around them wether it be the coaching staff being flawless (Patriots) or the colts/broncos giving peyton all the talent they could... Even Elway this year said he wanted to get Peyton more weapons to throw to.. You gotta give your QB pieces to play with, We cant just give Alex 6th round players and say do magic, that 6throunder probably cant beat the opposing DB off the ball...

Sorry, I'm going to completely agree to disagree.

I think you are grossly overestimating the talent Brady and Peyton have had around them. And Peyton has now done it for two systems, not just one. That's not discrediting Bellichick as a coach. You're absolutely right. He's an excellent coach. But they're winning even with lousy talent. Without Hernandez and Gronk last year, the Patriots should have been god awful. The year they had Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney, they should have been 7-9 at best. Brady and Peyton, like a handful of other elite HOF QBs, can carry an average team in ways guys like Alex Smith or Flacco or Eli can't. So I agree with you that we have to surround Alex Smith with talent. But if you're going to use an example, use Eli or Flacco or Big Ben, not elite QBs like Brady or Peyton. Last year, Smith led a playoff bubble team. You put Brady on that same team, and they are a Super Bowl favorite.

[TripleThreat]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Sorry, I'm going to completely agree to disagree.

I think you are grossly overestimating the talent Brady and Peyton have had around them. And Peyton has now done it for two systems, not just one. That's not discrediting Bellichick as a coach. You're absolutely right. He's an excellent coach. But they're winning even with lousy talent. Without Hernandez and Gronk last year, the Patriots should have been god awful. The year they had Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney, they should have been 7-9 at best. Brady and Peyton, like a handful of other elite HOF QBs, can carry an average team in ways guys like Alex Smith or Flacco or Eli can't. So I agree with you that we have to surround Alex Smith with talent. But if you're going to use an example, use Eli or Flacco or Big Ben, not elite QBs like Brady or Peyton. Last year, Smith led a playoff bubble team. You put Brady on that same team, and they are a Super Bowl favorite.

I feel though like any team Brady is on its a automatic superbowl favorite lol

[Messier]

Originally Posted by Rausch

The problem is there's no such thing as Chiefs football.

Chiefs football is hiring a coach off a SB team and trying to copy that model of success.

We did it with Marty trying to copy the 49'ers. And we traded for their QB's.
We did it with DV and the Rams and traded for one of their QB's.
We did it with Pioli and traded for one of the Pats QB's.

We don't come up with our own strategies - we try to copy everyone else's...

What is Reid trying to copy?

Listen, the NFL is incestuous, if you hire a coach that's been around, at all, they're going to try and take what worked before and transfer it to their new team. But you are right, very recently we saw Pioli attempt to recreate Patriot way in KC, and without Brady and Bilichick. It was awful and failed. Of you hire someone who has had some success, which almost every time will be the case, they'll try what worked for them, or what they've seen work.

[mcaj22]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I don't think I've heard anyone say that. In fact, I don't think anyone who likes this 2014 approach thinks we're going to be better.


You're pointing to an exception, not the rule. Schneider in Seattle and Thompson in Green Bay have had pockets of free agent activity. But they are far less active than most teams are and most of their starting lineups were built through the draft. And a huge part of that is that these teams are not shy about letting unproven players step in and play. And they aren't afraid to have extremely quiet offseasons like the Chiefs have in 2014. In fact, a lot of great teams seem to be built that way. A few quiet offseasons, big free agent splurt, then quiet again. The Patriots are an excellent example of that.

As I've said before, Dorsey's strategy will work, just as Schneider's did in Seattle, IF the team drafts well. And I get people who are skeptical about that "if" and have every reason to. But the philosophy itself is sound.

The Patriots have been signing veteran FAs for the last 5 to 10 ****ing years? Spurts? The Patriots bring in every veteran with a name they can.

you keep comparing Dorsey to the guy in Seattle as your blueprint and Dorsey is so far from that dude I don't know you why you think he's even close to that model. Schneider traded for Marshawn Lynch, splashed on Percy Harvin, trades in the draft, signs notable veteran FAs to cheap deals then signs them to long term deals to keep them.

Dorsey has done NONE of that so far. What has been Dorsey's biggest FA move? A trade for a FB? Two 2nds for a 29 year old QB? 12 million to a 29 year old WR? How is this stuff like Schneider in Seattle, it's not. To even think he's similar or that we are some Seattle in the making is a disrespect to Seattle and pure homerism as a Chiefs fan in denial.

[TripleThreat]

Originally Posted by mcaj22

The Patriots have been signing veteran FAs for the last 5 to 10 ****ing years? Spurts? The Patriots bring in every veteran with a name they can.

you keep comparing Dorsey to the guy in Seattle as your blueprint and Dorsey is so far from that dude I don't know you why you think he's even close to that model. Schneider traded for Marshawn Lynch, splashed on Percy Harvin, trades in the draft, signs notable veteran FAs to cheap deals then signs them to long term deals to keep them.

Dorsey has done NONE of that so far. What has been Dorsey's biggest FA move? A trade for a FB? Two 2nds for a 29 year old QB? 12 million to a 29 year old WR? How is this stuff like Schneider in Seattle, it's not. To even think he's similar or that we are some Seattle in the making is a disrespect to Seattle and pure homerism as a Chiefs fan in denial.

We definitely haven't made any moves like Seattle or the Broncos ... Its dumb too, itd be sick to land Jared Allen, Erick Decker and Demarcus ware in one season.. but I don't know sht about cap space so who knows.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by mcaj22

The Patriots have been signing veteran FAs for the last 5 to 10 ****ing years? Spurts? The Patriots bring in every veteran with a name they can.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...fseason/page/5
Brandon Lloyd was their big offseason signing in 2012

http://walterfootball.com/offseason2013ne.php
Tommie Kelly, Amendola, and Blount were their big signings in 2013

Wow, sure looks like the Pats are free agent binge drinkers.

you keep comparing Dorsey to the guy in Seattle as your blueprint and Dorsey is so far from that dude I don't know you why you think he's even close to that model. Schneider traded for Marshawn Lynch, splashed on Percy Harvin, trades in the draft, signs notable veteran FAs to cheap deals then signs them to long term deals to keep them.

Seahawks 2012 offseason:
Key Additions:
http://nfl.si.com/2012/07/09/offseas...ttle-seahawks/
QB Matt Flynn, DE/OLB Bruce Irvin, DT Jason Jones, G Deuce Lutui, G/T Frank Omiyale, LB Barrett Ruud, LB Bobby Wagner, TE Kellen Winslow, QB Russell Wilson

75% of their starting lineup was built through the draft, most over the last 4 years. The Seahawks binged in year 1 (including a trade for a QB), went quiet in year 2, then binged again in year 3. They made about a few outstanding free agency moves like Lynch, Avril, Bennett, and Harvin. The rest has been about the draft.

Dorsey has done NONE of that so far. What has been Dorsey's biggest FA move? A trade for a FB? Two 2nds for a 29 year old QB? 12 million to a 29 year old WR? How is this stuff like Schneider in Seattle, it's not. To even think he's similar or that we are some Seattle in the making is a disrespect to Seattle and pure homerism as a Chiefs fan in denial.

I compare the two approaches because they both come from the Ted Thompson school. I've said a million times that for this approach to work, Dorsey has to be a shitload better in the draft. I have never said it's going to work. I've said it could work, if he does better and Schneider is a classic example of that. As of right now, it's not like the two philosophies have been that much different. Schneider got a lot more out of the 2010 draft than Dorsey did in 2013, but there's still time for Dorsey's 2nd to 7th round picks to pan out. Schneider, like Dorsey, traded way too much for a QB in year 1 and drafted a Left Tackle with a very high first round pick. Schneider, like Dorsey, was extremely quiet in year 2. Dorsey, like Schneider, has a great opportunity to plug in some free agent caps in 2015.

[Coochie liquor]

Originally Posted by el borracho

Alex Smith failed to throw a touchdown in 6 games in 2013 (almost 38% of the games!); the Chiefs record in these games was 5 and 1.

Alex Smith threw for less than 200 yards in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 4 and 1.

The Chiefs defense allowed 23 or more points in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 1 and 4.

How does anybody credit Alex Smith with the Chiefs win/loss record in 2013, outside of not turning the ball over?


The cost for Smith, by the way, is not just the two 2nd round picks- you need to factor in the opportunity cost of not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2013; not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2014; and, if Smith is given an extension, likely not spending a high draft pick on a QB until 2016 or 2017. Congratulations, Chiefs fans- all of your QBOTF hopes will now rest on low round picks and undrafted free-agent QBs.

The whole concept of trading for another team's backup QB is a disaster and I can't believe that Chiefs fans aren't universally outraged. Smith in particular is a disaster (23 touchdowns in a "career" year and 0 touchdown passes in 38% of the games). And the coming contract extension is yet another disaster. Chiefs fans had better hope that Dorsey either puts together an all-time defense or pulls another Aaron Rogers out of his ass, because Smith will never be a franchise QB.

Not sure if you know this BUT..... We have one of the best rb in the league. When you can run the ball effectively you don't have to throw tons of yards or tds. But you DO have to have a qb who wont turn the ball over often and makes good decisions when he does throw it. Alex Smith did that. I guarantee if you put Geno, or whoever you thought we should draft at qb last year, or any of the other garbage FA qbs that were available last off season we wouldn't have made the playoffs let alone put up 40+ points to have our defense shredded.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by mcaj22

The Patriots have been signing veteran FAs for the last 5 to 10 ****ing years? Spurts? The Patriots bring in every veteran with a name they can.

you keep comparing Dorsey to the guy in Seattle as your blueprint and Dorsey is so far from that dude I don't know you why you think he's even close to that model. Schneider traded for Marshawn Lynch, splashed on Percy Harvin, trades in the draft, signs notable veteran FAs to cheap deals then signs them to long term deals to keep them.

Dorsey has done NONE of that so far. What has been Dorsey's biggest FA move? A trade for a FB? Two 2nds for a 29 year old QB? 12 million to a 29 year old WR? How is this stuff like Schneider in Seattle, it's not. To even think he's similar or that we are some Seattle in the making is a disrespect to Seattle and pure homerism as a Chiefs fan in denial.

This post is simply wrong and completely ruins any opinion you have on this subject moving forward.

[Messier]

I've started discounting people that when talking about the Alex Smith trade, refer to him as just another backup QB, or suggest that he's old.

[Chief Roundup]

Originally Posted by el borracho

Alex Smith failed to throw a touchdown in 6 games in 2013 (almost 38% of the games!); the Chiefs record in these games was 5 and 1.

Alex Smith threw for less than 200 yards in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 4 and 1.

The Chiefs defense allowed 23 or more points in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 1 and 4.

How does anybody credit Alex Smith with the Chiefs win/loss record in 2013, outside of not turning the ball over?


The cost for Smith, by the way, is not just the two 2nd round picks- you need to factor in the opportunity cost of not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2013; not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2014; and, if Smith is given an extension, likely not spending a high draft pick on a QB until 2016 or 2017. Congratulations, Chiefs fans- all of your QBOTF hopes will now rest on low round picks and undrafted free-agent QBs.

The whole concept of trading for another team's backup QB is a disaster and I can't believe that Chiefs fans aren't universally outraged. Smith in particular is a disaster (23 touchdowns in a "career" year and 0 touchdown passes in 38% of the games). And the coming contract extension is yet another disaster. Chiefs fans had better hope that Dorsey either puts together an all-time defense or pulls another Aaron Rogers out of his ass, because Smith will never be a franchise QB.

Oh you mean those early games when the offense was still trying to be learned and implemented by the ENTIRE offense he didn't throw a touchdown.
Those games under 200 yards, weren't those the games that we had leads in and the D was doing what they were suppose to so we were running the ball and burning up clock instead of throwing the pigskin all over for no reason.
You are damn right we lost twice to the SB runner ups, Peytons donkos, while putting 28 points on the board in our house our Defense let them put up 35. Yeah we did lose to the Chargers but the offense scored 38 while that D of ours gave up 41. Our whole ****ing team, including coaching staff, couldn't do a damn thing right against the Colts in the regular season, to the point it looked almost intentional.
Oh yeah we should have drafted Geno Smith last year. NOT what a dumbass thought that is. The Chiefs gained from not picking up Geno Smith.

Alex Smith is a franchise QB. He is the Chiefs franchise QB.

[htismaqe]

This place is ****ing reeruned anymore.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

This place is ****ing reeruned anymore.

Something we can agree on, though from different angles.