Do you want to see Miguel Cabrera win MLBs Triple Crown?

[Valiant]

Originally Posted by Brainiac

I get tired of hearing people say RBIs don't count or that they're not important, or that they're just the product of being in a good lineup with runners on base in front of you. Baseball is a team game. If you're going to dismiss RBIs simply because somebody else has to get on base in front of the hitter, then you also have to dismiss runs scored because somebody had to drive the runner in. While you're at it, you have to dismiss stolen bases because by itself a stolen base doesn't lead to a run. And as long as we are arbitrarily dismissing things, we might as well dismiss the great plays in center field that rob the opposing teams of home runs, because they don't directly lead to runs for the player's team, and you can't win games without scoring runs.

See how ridiculous that is?

Now that you've dismissed all of the statistics that require help from another player in order for a run to score, the only stat you're left with is home runs.

Who's leading the league in home runs again? Oh yeah, it's Miguel Cabrera.

Hey, I get it. Mike Trout is an exciting player, and he had a historically great rookie season. He's a 5-tool player with a combination of speed and power reserved for the all-time greats like Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays. About a month ago I assumed Mike Trout would be MVP, and there was no doubt in my mind he deserved it.

However, Miguel Cabrera put on a hell of a charge at the end of the season when it mattered the most. It's just Mike Trout's bad luck that he had his great rookie season the same year somebody else won the Triple Freaking Crown. When somebody wins the Triple Crown and his team wins their division, there's no way in hell you can award the MVP to someone whose team finished out of the playoffs. Mike Trout is a close #2 choice, but he's still #2.

If Mike Trout wins the MVP award, they should change the name of the award to Most Popular Player.

This.. I always hear in sports the MVP is for players that got their teams to excel and made the playoffs.. Cabrera took Detroit to the playoffs.. Trout did not, absolute stud though..

There should be no way Trout wins it unless the coast bias kicks in and as you say, the most popular player gets it..

[Carlota69]

Originally Posted by Valiant

This.. I always hear in sports the MVP is for players that got their teams to excel and made the playoffs.. Cabrera took Detroit to the playoffs.. Trout did not, absolute stud though..

There should be no way Trout wins it unless the coast bias kicks in and as you say, the most popular player gets it..

Wait...so Miggy should get it cuz Detroit is in the playoffs and the Angels aren't? Even though the Angels have a better record and play in a much tougher division?

[Valiant]

Originally Posted by Carlota69

Wait...so Miggy should get it cuz Detroit is in the playoffs and the Angels aren't? Even though the Angels have a better record and play in a much tougher division?

What is the point of being a MVP when your team is watching on TV?? You have a guy like Hamilton who got his team in the playoffs and raping in stats not being considered compared to those two..


All 3 are MVPs for their teams.. What do you want to look at next?? Those guys that got their team into the playoffs..

Trout did great, but he went up against a guy whose team made the playoffs because of him and pulled/pulling off a triple crown..

If Trout did what he did on the Tigers/Royals,this would not even be a headline..

[Carlota69]

Originally Posted by Valiant

What is the point of being a MVP when your team is watching on TV?? You have a guy like Hamilton who got his team in the playoffs and raping in stats not being considered compared to those two..


All 3 are MVPs for their teams.. What do you want to look at next?? Those guys that got their team into the playoffs..

Trout did great, but he went up against a guy whose team made the playoffs because of him and pulled/pulling off a triple crown..

If Trout did what he did on the Tigers/Royals,this would not even be a headline..

Um, ok....first of all, they Angels have a better record than the Tigers and play ina much tougher division, thereby a much tougher schedule. Also, the Triple Crown is an offensive feat, and a rare one for sure, but Trout is the better overall player this year, and has been the reason the Anglels have a better record than the Tigers. Also, Trout has also achieved many feats that are rare. Add the fact that he has the offensive numbers of a clean up guy, in the lead off spot, a terror in a historic way on the base paths and will surely win the gold glove in CF, it's hard to imagine someone saying he isn't the more valuable player. Yes, Miggy has killed it at the plate and mdeserves whatever offensive award available, but overall MVP? Hes Below average at his position and sucks on the base paths...but yes, he's awesome with the bat, he'd may get the triple crown. Doesn't make him the better overall most valuable player.

[Lex Luthor]

All of the Trout fans should consider this: since August 1st, Cabrera has hit .343 with 19 home runs, 52 RBI, and he's scored 42 runs. Trout has hit .284 with 12 home runs, 28 RBI, and has scored 49 runs.

Cabrera's batting average down the stretch in the pennant race was 59 points higher, he hit 7 more home runs, and his combined total for runs scored and runs batted in was 94 versus 71 for Trout.

If Trout had produced as well as Cabrera when it mattered the most, the Angels would be in the playoffs. Instead, they finished in 3rd place, which is exactly where they would have finished if Trout had never played an inning this year.

It's not even close. The vote for MVP should be unanimous.

[Lex Luthor]

Oh, and if some Poindexter wants to get out his slide rule and calculate WAR since August 1st, I'm pretty sure Cabrera would come out far ahead of Trout.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Oh, and if some Poindexter wants to get out his slide rule and calculate WAR since August 1st, I'm pretty sure Cabrera would come out far ahead of Trout.

Nope.

Trout: 3.6 (1.8 in August, 1.8 in September/October)
Cabrera: 3.1 (1.5 in August, 1.6 in September/October)

Glove+Bat+Legs still put Trout over the top in WAR.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Brainiac

All of the Trout fans should consider this: since August 1st, Cabrera has hit .343 with 19 home runs, 52 RBI, and he's scored 42 runs. Trout has hit .284 with 12 home runs, 28 RBI, and has scored 49 runs.

Cabrera's batting average down the stretch in the pennant race was 59 points higher, he hit 7 more home runs, and his combined total for runs scored and runs batted in was 94 versus 71 for Trout.

If Trout had produced as well as Cabrera when it mattered the most, the Angels would be in the playoffs. Instead, they finished in 3rd place, which is exactly where they would have finished if Trout had never played an inning this year.

It's not even close. The vote for MVP should be unanimous.

And the Angels are a whole half-game worse than the Tigers over that stretch. They went 32-25 since August 1. The Tigers are 33-25. The Tigers were just fortunate to play a lot of games against the shitty AL Central. That's the only reason they're in the playoffs and the Angels are missing it. Saying "Trout slumped and that's why the Angels missed the playoffs" misses the mark, IMO. For one thing, he still produced an .860 OPS during the time period you defined. For another, it doesn't account for any contributions Trout made with the glove or his legs (contributions Cabrera can't make). Trout stole 18 bases during that period (18/19) and played Gold Glove defense in CF.

BTW, Most statisticians only count HR once when calculating runs created (Since counting them for RBI and R creates an artificial number and is not statistically sound). Looking at the numbers that way, Cabrera accounts for 74 runs (42+52-19), Trout for 65 (28+49-12). That's not a very big separation in the key stats for Cabrera's case.

And RBI and R are not definitive numbers in a small sample size, IMO, since they're entirely dependent on the team around the players.

Truth is neither player is a "clear case" over the other. They're both deserving, and I won't complain regardless of who wins. I would vote for Trout, personally, because he can help you win games in any way a baseball player can possibly help a team win games. Cabrera can win them with his bat - which is tremendous - but that's about it.

[Carlota69]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

And the Angels are a whole half-game worse than the Tigers over that stretch. They went 32-25 since August 1. The Tigers are 33-25. The Tigers were just fortunate to play a lot of games against the shitty AL Central. That's the only reason they're in the playoffs and the Angels are missing it. Saying "Trout slumped and that's why the Angels missed the playoffs" misses the mark, IMO. For one thing, he still produced an .860 OPS during the time period you defined. For another, it doesn't account for any contributions Trout made with the glove or his legs (contributions Cabrera can't make). Trout stole 18 bases during that period (18/19) and played Gold Glove defense in CF.

BTW, Most statisticians only count HR once when calculating runs created (Since counting them for RBI and R creates an artificial number and is not statistically sound). Looking at the numbers that way, Cabrera accounts for 74 runs (42+52-19), Trout for 65 (28+49-16). That's not a very big separation in the key stats for Cabrera's case.

And RBI and R are not definitive numbers in a small sample size, IMO, since they're entirely dependent on the team around the players.

Truth is neither player is a "clear case" over the other. They're both deserving, and I won't complain regardless of who wins. I would vote for Trout, personally, because he can help you win games in any way a baseball player can possibly help a team win games. Cabrera can win them with his bat - which is tremendous - but that's about it.

BINGO. And lets not forget the fact that Trout has done all of these great, historic things as a 20-21 yr old player, who hits leadoff, not clean up. And dont say well then just give him ROY. If thats the arguement, we shouldnt give pitchers MVP becasue they can win the CY young award.

[Lex Luthor]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

BTW, Most statisticians only count HR once when calculating runs created (Since counting them for RBI and R creates an artificial number and is not statistically sound). Looking at the numbers that way, Cabrera accounts for 74 runs (42+52-19), Trout for 65 (28+49-12). That's not a very big separation in the key stats for Cabrera's case.

The "runs produced" stat has always been the most bogus stat in baseball. It penalizes a player for hitting a home run because he scores a run and drives in a run in the same at-bat. Yet virtually every time a run is scored, SOMEBODY gets credit for scoring it, and SOMEBODY gets credit for driving in the run. That's a total credit for 2 runs produced for every run that is actually scored, EXCEPT when the run scores as a result of a home run.

Adding up RBI and runs scored is a fine indicator of runs produced. Subtracting home runs doesn't give you a better idea of a player's production. All it does is add an element of complexity to a formula that is more accurate when it's kept simple.

[Reaper16]

Originally Posted by Valiant

This.. I always hear in sports the MVP is for players that got their teams to excel and made the playoffs.. Cabrera took Detroit to the playoffs.. Trout did not, absolute stud though..

Trout certainly got his team to excel. Since Trout was called up the Angles have the very best record in baseball (and remember how poor the Angles were playing before he was called up), have a better record than the Tigers, and have played a much tougher schedule. That literally makes him the player with the most value to his team.