Today 12/27 Mel Kiper says.......

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Molitoth - do you now see how stupid your post looks when put into context?

Get that shit out of here - leadership is a litmus test, not a driving factor. What wins in this league is talent and yes, you can measure talent. Russell Wilson doesn't win because of "heart" or "determination", he wins because he's a foolishly great athlete with great instincts and sense for the position. I underestimated his potential because of his size and accuracy concerns - I clearly didn't do enough homework.

This Olympics-style human interest shit bores me to tears. Physical talent and intelligence wins ballgames. Leadership can put you over the hump, but we'll worry about that when we get there. Dan Marino was dumb as a hammer and a shit leader, but he won ballgames. Terry Bradshaw was a lazy hillbilly and won 4 Super Bowls. Ryan Fitzpatrick is brilliant and he sucks. Matt Cassel, by all accounts, works as hard as anyone and is as 'determined' as Tom Brady to not blow - he still does.

Blah blah blah - they don't look for heart - blah. Bullshit. Determination does show up on tape and drive shows up in interviews. The good evaluators spot that stuff, the bad ones don't.

Mel Kiper is lazy and doesn't do his homework, it's really as simple as that.

The Marino reference is interesting - there's a reason he set a few dozen NFL records but doesn't have a ring.

The "it" factor is what separates the Montana's from the Marino's. it's what separates Aaron Rodgers from Jay Cutler.

Heart, determination, poise under pressure - they all ABSOLUTELY matter.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

The Marino reference is interesting - there's a reason he set a few dozen NFL records but doesn't have a ring.

The "it" factor is what separates the Montana's from the Marino's. it's what separates Aaron Rodgers from Jay Cutler.

Heart, determination, poise under pressure - they all ABSOLUTELY matter.

They matter, but in the margins. And ultimately, a ton of it is rear-view mirror analysis. Brett Favre is 'a leader' but had he not had Reggie White on his team, we'd look back at him as a dipshit rube gunslinger that frat-boyed the Packers out of a championship or two.

If John Elway doesn't get Terrel Davis in the backfield, he's still a punchline.

We call those guys great leaders in hindsight because they won, but it's a Chicken/egg argument, IMO.

There are a handful of truly great leaders that have come into the league. Montana is among them and perhaps Brady as well. Those guys are outliers and not what you demand in a QB.

I don't think either Manning falls into that category and I'm not convinced Rodgers does either. Those are just excellent QBs with insane talent. What separates Rodgers from Cutler is accuracy, decisionmaking and to a lesser degree, mobility. Oh, and Cutler is revered by his teammates, for what it's worth. Folks in Chicago say that his leadership in that lockerroom is superlative. But sometimes he's just a goddamn lunatic on the field and thats why they don't win.

What kept Marino from a Super Bowl was no running game and no pass rush. Had he had either of those things, he'd have gotten a ring or two and we wouldn't be blitzing him as a shitty leader, just as we don't blitz Elway or Favre.

A complete lack of leadership and character will kill a QB, look at Fatmarcus. But most of them have enough to pass the litmus test question. At that point its talent and decisionmaking - which you can see on the tape.

The panting 'leader' platitudes are for national talking heads that love to analyze in the rearview rather than do their homework ahead of time.

[CoMoChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

They matter, but in the margins. And ultimately, a ton of it is rear-view mirror analysis. Brett Favre is 'a leader' but had he not had Reggie White on his team, we'd look back at him as a dipshit rube gunslinger that frat-boyed the Packers out of a championship or two.

If John Elway doesn't get Terrel Davis in the backfield, he's still a punchline.

We call those guys great leaders in hindsight because they won, but it's a Chicken/egg argument, IMO.

There are a handful of truly great leaders that have come into the league. Montana is among them and perhaps Brady as well. Those guys are outliers and not what you demand in a QB.

I don't think either Manning falls into that category and I'm not convinced Rodgers does either. Those are just excellent QBs with insane talent. What separates Rodgers from Cutler is accuracy, decisionmaking and to a lesser degree, mobility. Oh, and Cutler is revered by his teammates, for what it's worth. Folks in Chicago say that his leadership in that lockerroom is superlative. But sometimes he's just a goddamn lunatic on the field and thats why they don't win.

What kept Marino from a Super Bowl was no running game and no pass rush. Had he had either of those things, he'd have gotten a ring or two and we wouldn't be blitzing him as a shitty leader, just as we don't blitz Elway or Favre.

A complete lack of leadership and character will kill a QB, look at Fatmarcus. But most of them have enough to pass the litmus test question. At that point its talent and decisionmaking - which you can see on the tape.

The panting 'leader' platitudes are for national talking heads that love to analyze in the rearview rather than do their homework ahead of time.

RB's in that Broncos running scheme are/were expendable...they were churning out 1,000 yd backs like it was nothing after TD. Broncos would have been fine and IMO still would have made the SB.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by CoMoChief

RB's in that Broncos running scheme are/were expendable...they were churning out 1,000 yd backs like it was nothing after TD. Broncos would have been fine and IMO still would have made the SB.

Eh, not really.

Sure, they still turned out 1,000 yd backs, but not 1,700 and 2k yard backs like Davis was putting out there. I mean you're talking about the difference between a decent runningback (say Ahmad Bradshaw) and a great one (like AP).

They would've still had a decent running game, but not an elite one. With a declining Elway and without Davis at the absolute apex of his game (again, we're talking about almost 1,900 yds/season in those 2 SB years), I don't think that team wins a SB.

And in either event, if you think it was the Denver system that won them the SB, then is John Elway now a system QB? Regardless of how they got it, they do not win a SB without that running game.

It wasn't that Elway suddenly learned to be a leader, it was that he was given the tools to win and was able to do so in the twilight of his career.

Leadership is an after-acquired trait. We put the label on people after they win. Which tells me that it's largely mythical.

[cdcox]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

They matter, but in the margins. And ultimately, a ton of it is rear-view mirror analysis. Brett Favre is 'a leader' but had he not had Reggie White on his team, we'd look back at him as a dipshit rube gunslinger that frat-boyed the Packers out of a championship or two.

If John Elway doesn't get Terrel Davis in the backfield, he's still a punchline.

We call those guys great leaders in hindsight because they won, but it's a Chicken/egg argument, IMO.

There are a handful of truly great leaders that have come into the league. Montana is among them and perhaps Brady as well. Those guys are outliers and not what you demand in a QB.

I don't think either Manning falls into that category and I'm not convinced Rodgers does either. Those are just excellent QBs with insane talent. What separates Rodgers from Cutler is accuracy, decisionmaking and to a lesser degree, mobility. Oh, and Cutler is revered by his teammates, for what it's worth. Folks in Chicago say that his leadership in that lockerroom is superlative. But sometimes he's just a goddamn lunatic on the field and thats why they don't win.

What kept Marino from a Super Bowl was no running game and no pass rush. Had he had either of those things, he'd have gotten a ring or two and we wouldn't be blitzing him as a shitty leader, just as we don't blitz Elway or Favre.

A complete lack of leadership and character will kill a QB, look at Fatmarcus. But most of them have enough to pass the litmus test question. At that point its talent and decisionmaking - which you can see on the tape.

The panting 'leader' platitudes are for national talking heads that love to analyze in the rearview rather than do their homework ahead of time.

I concur with this post.