If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? - Page 2

**jAZ** · 02-20-2007, 12:02 AM

I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality".

If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html

Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine
POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007

By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann
CNN

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm.

But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God.

"The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says.

De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader )

"He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers.

"De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones."

Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978?

Prophets 'spoke to me'
De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world.

But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries.

De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict.

De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels.

"The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says.

The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other:

Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus.

De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes.

The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States.

Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex
If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty.

He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers.

And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm?

Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood.

The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth.

"Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross."

And de Jesus says that means him.

So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin.

He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose.

"If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.

Kerberos · 02-20-2007, 05:50 AM

Did anyone else see the guys picture on that link?

J.H. on his vest?

Would that make him Jesus H. Christ?

.

HarryParatestes · 02-20-2007, 05:53 AM

Hummm why did the name JIM JONES jump to mind when I saw this?

**Buck** · 02-20-2007, 06:04 AM

Dont Drink the Kool Aid

chagrin · 02-20-2007, 06:29 AM

Why are all these freaks in Florida? What a complete nut job

C-Mac · 02-20-2007, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jAZ

De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict.

Wow.... its hard to believe that God was once a thief and a herion addict.

C-Mac · 02-20-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guru

He is no one. If he were anybody, he could only be the Antichrist. But the Antichrist won't make himself known. He will be thrust into power by the people who think he is the answer to all the worlds problems. Nothing like this though.

The anti-christ is not just one person, there are many of them.

**Bearcat** · 02-20-2007, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jAZ

If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned?

If he could part the red sea of the narrow Arrowhead concourses?

InChiefsHeaven · 02-20-2007, 07:46 AM

Put a bullet in his head. If he shrugs it off, he's God.

KC Jones · 02-20-2007, 08:09 AM

When Jesus returns I think we will know it's him cause he'll have like 3 or 4 diamond encrusted rolexes, armored luxury cars, and some hot secretaries. Oh crap - I gots to get to Florida and see the returned lord. I wonder if he'll mind if I hit some spring break parties on the trip? Maybe I'll bring him some hookers and coke as a peace offering.

InChiefsHeaven · 02-20-2007, 08:23 AM

Seriously, I'm surprised somebody hasn't tried to whack this guy just to prove he's a con-man...

BucEyedPea · 02-20-2007, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rxrider

Did anyone else see the guys picture on that link?

J.H. on his vest?

Would that make him Jesus H. Christ?

Hey that's blasphemy. His middle name is really Harold.

Rooster · 02-20-2007, 08:30 AM

Tom Cruise is so pissed off right now.

BucEyedPea · 02-20-2007, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jAZ

I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality".

I took a philosophy course once and reality is just what we agree it is.

Anyhow, I thought of this when you asked this. The early followers of Christ who were jews, were considered a cult at the time. The jewish mainstream or heirarchy didn't accept him as the Messiah—nor did the Romans. This isn't to say it wasn't real for his followers. Nor am I saying Jesus of Nazareth wasn't Christ. If something becomes a big enough following or agreement, which Christianity did eventually, that becomes the reality even if some disagree.

chagrin · 02-20-2007, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I took a philosophy course once and reality is just what we agree it is.

Anyhow, I thought of this when you asked this. The early followers of Christ who were jews, were considered a cult at the time. The jewish mainstream or heirarchy didn't accept him as the Messiah—nor did the Romans. This isn't to say it wasn't real for his followers. Nor am I saying Jesus of Nazareth wasn't Christ. If something becomes a big enough following or agreement, which Christianity did eventually, that becomes the reality even if some disagree.

My first thought here is, I took a Social Theory class once and reality is what we are told it is, so um...which is correct?

Okay, is this supposed to be educational, because right now you're just summarizing the Bible - doesn't everyone already know this? I mean anyone who truly seeks knowledge would.

King_Chief_Fan · 02-20-2007, 08:41 AM

Hence the warning of false prohets and those who will claim to be the Christ.

02-20-2007, 12:02 AM
jAZ Supporter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Casino cash: $9847493	If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality". If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned? http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007 By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann CNN MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm. But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God. "The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says. De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader ) "He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers. "De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones." Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978? Prophets 'spoke to me' De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world. But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries. De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict. De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels. "The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says. The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other: Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus. De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes. The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States. Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty. He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers. And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm? Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood. The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth. "Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross." And de Jesus says that means him. So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin. He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose. "If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.
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02-20-2007, 05:50 AM	#16
Kerberos Chiefs Baby Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Henderson, NV Casino cash: $10000632	Did anyone else see the guys picture on that link? J.H. on his vest? Would that make him Jesus H. Christ? . __________________ ____________________________________________ She aint a hoe if you don't get laid, and it aint a show if I don't get paid-- Everlast
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02-20-2007, 05:53 AM	#17
HarryParatestes Starter Join Date: Jun 2003 Casino cash: $10004900	Hummm why did the name JIM JONES jump to mind when I saw this? __________________ Harry Paratestes: President, Vice President, Treasurer, Seargent -at-Arms, Sole Member, North Alabama Chiefs Fan Club
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02-20-2007, 06:04 AM	#18
Buck Take a Chill Pill Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Carolina Casino cash: $8269900	Dont Drink the Kool Aid
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02-20-2007, 06:29 AM	#19
chagrin Giggitty! Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Missoula, Mt Casino cash: $9914905	Why are all these freaks in Florida? What a complete nut job
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02-20-2007, 07:46 AM	#23
InChiefsHeaven Rockin' yer FACE OFF! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Casino cash: $3654937	Put a bullet in his head. If he shrugs it off, he's God. __________________ We have a million reasons for failure, but not one excuse... Die Donks, DIE!! Holy Crap fellas!!! We did it!!! THREE TIMES!!!
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02-20-2007, 08:09 AM	#24
KC Jones Genious Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $10012761	When Jesus returns I think we will know it's him cause he'll have like 3 or 4 diamond encrusted rolexes, armored luxury cars, and some hot secretaries. Oh crap - I gots to get to Florida and see the returned lord. I wonder if he'll mind if I hit some spring break parties on the trip? Maybe I'll bring him some hookers and coke as a peace offering. __________________ re-sign: to sign again resign: to withdraw from employment
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02-20-2007, 08:23 AM	#25
InChiefsHeaven Rockin' yer FACE OFF! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Casino cash: $3654937	Seriously, I'm surprised somebody hasn't tried to whack this guy just to prove he's a con-man... __________________ We have a million reasons for failure, but not one excuse... Die Donks, DIE!! Holy Crap fellas!!! We did it!!! THREE TIMES!!!
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02-20-2007, 08:30 AM	#27
Rooster Draft a QB Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: JoCo Casino cash: $9961689	Tom Cruise is so pissed off right now. __________________ When Reno Hightower was a prick he was the best damn quarterback in the history of Kern County.
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02-20-2007, 08:41 AM	#30
King_Chief_Fan Praise Him Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: none ya Casino cash: $5875486	Hence the warning of false prohets and those who will claim to be the Christ. __________________ No Jesus No Peace Know Jesus Know Peace Ephesians 2:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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