Would you trade Alex Smith for Colin Kaepernick straight up?

[Alex Smith 4Ever]

I would not. Alex is a better quarterback right now and does not have the off field incidents of Kaepernick

[temper11]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Absolutely.

He didn't lose the game. He also didn't WIN it.

Isn't that, after all, what was said about Kaepernick?.

Treading lightly here... but... if Bowe points his toe, we win. Does this argument then change? Everything else stays the same, the pass, the placement the "4th down - game on the line" situation, everything the same, except Bowe points his toe. If that happened then we are saying he did WIN it right? We would be saying that he can "put the team on his back and carry it"... even after all the injuries, the complete meltdown of the D, etc. that he can carry the team and win it?

Seems strange that Bowe's toe has that much power to change the entire conversation?

Note here, I'm not blaming Bowe for the loss. Just pointing out that if he points the toe, we are talking about Smith in a different way. Seems strange that the isolated action of one could alter the conversation of another.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by temper11

Treading lightly here... but... if Bowe points his toe, we win. Does this argument then change? Everything else stays the same, the pass, the placement the "4th down - game on the line" situation, everything the same, except Bowe points his toe. If that happened then we are saying he did WIN it right? We would be saying that he can "put the team on his back and carry it"... even after all the injuries, the complete meltdown of the D, etc. that he can carry the team and win it?

Seems strange that Bowe's toe has that much power to change the entire conversation?

Note here, I'm not blaming Bowe for the loss. Just pointing out that if he points the toe, we are talking about Smith in a different way. Seems strange that the isolated action of one could alter the conversation of another.

First of all, in what world was the pass to Bowe a scoring play?

The Chiefs were down by 1 point and facing a 4th and 11. Bowe stepped out at the 19 yard line.

The game wasn't "won" if Bowe makes that catch. It certainly COULD have been won but it wasn't "won" until somebody scored.

Second, everybody is conveniently forgetting what setup that play. Alex Smith was penalized for intentional grounding on 2 and 7 and then on 3rd and 17, dumped it off to McCluster for 6 yards.

For the record, I don't blame Bowe OR Smith. The defender made an excellent play against the boundary.

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

First of all, in what world was the pass to Bowe a scoring play?

The Chiefs were down by 1 point and facing a 4th and 11. Bowe stepped out at the 19 yard line.

The game wasn't "won" if Bowe makes that catch. It certainly COULD have been won but it wasn't "won" until somebody scored.

Second, everybody is conveniently forgetting what setup that play. Alex Smith was penalized for intentional grounding on 2 and 7 and then on 3rd and 17, dumped it off to McCluster for 6 yards.

For the record, I don't blame Bowe OR Smith. The defender made an excellent play against the boundary.

Blame Reid for poor 2nd half play calling and his timeout before the last throw.

[BeeHo]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

You left out he was the 37th out of 39 QBs in downfield attempts. It's nice that he has the physical ability to go downfield (nobody really questions his arm strength), but it's always been an issue if he has the mental makeup to go downfield often. The fact that Cassel is in the top 10 shows just how misleading stats can be.

I didn't leave it out. I noted that the article doesn't show number of attempts and I didn't know them.

I personally don't want Alex to be a downfield gunslinger without the right receivers. Rather, I'd rather he keep mixing his game up.

Pretty much only Donnie Avery is his consistent down field receiver, which is pretty sad considering Avery's tendency to drop passes.

[temper11]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

First of all, in what world was the pass to Bowe a scoring play?

The Chiefs were down by 1 point and facing a 4th and 11. Bowe stepped out at the 19 yard line.

The game wasn't "won" if Bowe makes that catch. It certainly COULD have been won but it wasn't "won" until somebody scored.

You are right... that play would have given them a 1st down in field goal range with time left on the clock. But it wasn't in-and-of itself a scoring play. I was assuming the eventual field goal completion.

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Second, everybody is conveniently forgetting what setup that play. Alex Smith was penalized for intentional grounding on 2 and 7 and then on 3rd and 17, dumped it off to McCluster for 6 yards.

For the record, I don't blame Bowe OR Smith. The defender made an excellent play against the boundary.

I'm not conveniently forgetting anything. I remember the intentional grounding call that he took instead of taking a sack. It cost us 2 more yards than the sack would have, but had the refs not called it, would have saved yards. I'm ok with that. The 3rd down play was an attempt to cut the down and distance to something more manageable, and it worked.

My point wasn't to look at every play of the game. No one is going to be perfect (including Bowe, or the line or the D), my point was simply that if Bowe's points the toe, the narrative completely changes. I've just never really understood that. Another example is the San Diego game that Smith played in. Late in the 4th qtr, he leads the team down the field and throws what is likely the game winning TD. Standing on the sidelines, the D allows SD to march right back with seconds only on the clock and complete a desperate last second pass to win the game. The narrative for some was, "see, Smith can't put the team on his back". We all know that if the D just makes SD work a little harder, they run out of clock, Chiefs win and the narrative is Smith came through in the clutch and won that game.

How can the narrative on Smith (or any player for that matter) change due to the circumstances that are beyond his control?

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by temper11

I'm not conveniently forgetting anything. I remember the intentional grounding call that he took instead of taking a sack. It cost us 2 more yards than the sack would have, but had the refs not called it, would have saved yards.

Had the refs not called it? The single worst thing a QB can do in that situation, other than turn the ball over, is commit a grounding penalty. Grounding penalties are the result of panic and indecision. Guys that are "clutch" in the pocket don't commit them in key situations. Sorry.

Originally Posted by temper11

The 3rd down play was an attempt to cut the down and distance to something more manageable, and it worked.

4th and 11, down by 1, is manageable?

Originally Posted by temper11

How can the narrative on Smith (or any player for that matter) change due to the circumstances that are beyond his control?

By taking advantages of the circumstances he CAN control. If they had scored even one more FG in the 3rd quarter, they would have won the game and the rest of this conversation is moot.

I'm not asking Smith to be perfect. But I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that he is when he's clearly not.

[FRCDFED]

The addition of Charles in that game is the difference maker in regards to clock management. Props to Davis. He ran hard but he isn't Charles. Plus after he went down it sucked the life out of the offense. Smith was a stud in that game. It wasn't lost by the offense. They did their part.

Cue Kendrick Lewis highlight on defense.

[temper11]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Had the refs not called it? The single worst thing a QB can do in that situation, other than turn the ball over, is commit a grounding penalty. Grounding penalties are the result of panic and indecision. Guys that are "clutch" in the pocket don't commit them in key situations. Sorry.

Alright... someone already posted the article in which it showed Smith at the top of the list when it comes to avoiding pressure. I personally don't think one grounding call negates his body of work in the pocket. Furthermore, if Smith takes the sack there, there would be huge uproar of people talking about how "elite QB's don't take sacks in that situation, they get rid of the football." It's such a fine line and so easy for people to sit in judgement. The pocket collapsed rapidly. It was going to be a sack if he didn't get rid of it. He made an attempt and it was called grounding - cost 2 yards.

Originally Posted by htismaqe

4th and 11, down by 1, is manageable?

4th and 11 is better than 4th and 17 which is what you would be facing if you opt for a low-percentage play on third down and it falls incomplete. Furthermore, deeper routes take more time to develop and as you pointed out above, Colts were bringing the pressure. You opt for a high-percentage "quick" play and hope the receiver can make a move and recover a big chunk of those yards and put you in 4th and more-manageable. Screens are common in these situations. High percentage passes to shorten the down and distance and open up your playbook for more possibilities. It's not as if they specifically selected a "6 yard" play... they selected a high percentage play.

Originally Posted by htismaqe

If they had scored even one more FG in the 3rd quarter, they would have won the game and the rest of this conversation is moot.

Thank you.... this was my point all along. So, for many people, if he'd have put up 47 points he's a clutch QB, nothing else matters, not the fumble, not the overthrow to Gray, not the intentional grounding... all that "conversation is moot". He put the team on his back, etc etc etc.

But 44pts - "he can't win the big game", can't come through down the stretch, can't step up when it matters most, etc.? In my opinion however, even having scored just the 44pts, he did do all of those things. When the game came down to do or die, Smith and the offense marched down the field. On 4th down and 11, with the entire KC playoff drought history in the balance, Smith throws a dart to his receiver that - if not for a fractured foot - puts the team in FG range and a high probability of putting those all important 3 pts on the board.

Originally Posted by htismaqe

I'm not asking Smith to be perfect. But I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that he is when he's clearly not.

And I'm not pretending he is perfect, but likewise I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that he isn't clutch in the pocket, doesn't step up in big games, can't carry his team, isn't calm under pressure, and isn't a franchise QB because 3pts in a 44pt loss says he's not. I will not pretend he is perfect because I do not expect perfection from any QB.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by temper11

Alright... someone already posted the article in which it showed Smith at the top of the list when it comes to avoiding pressure. I personally don't think one grounding call negates his body of work in the pocket.

In general, him avoiding pressure includes him LEAVING the pocket.

Originally Posted by temper11

Furthermore, if Smith takes the sack there, there would be huge uproar of people talking about how "elite QB's don't take sacks in that situation, they get rid of the football." It's such a fine line and so easy for people to sit in judgement. The pocket collapsed rapidly. It was going to be a sack if he didn't get rid of it. He made an attempt and it was called grounding - cost 2 yards.

And it's still a negative play. A QB with more arm strength might have been able to throw it away without incurring a penalty.

You're misunderstanding the purpose of this argument, though, and playing right into exactly what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by temper11

4th and 11 is better than 4th and 17 which is what you would be facing if you opt for a low-percentage play on third down and it falls incomplete. Furthermore, deeper routes take more time to develop and as you pointed out above, Colts were bringing the pressure.

So more excuses and moral victories. Got it.

Originally Posted by temper11

You opt for a high-percentage "quick" play and hope the receiver can make a move and recover a big chunk of those yards and put you in 4th and more-manageable.

Or you opt to dump it off to Dexter McCluster, who is know for his ability to break arm tackles and scoot for 1st downs in long-yardage situations.

Originally Posted by temper11

It's not as if they specifically selected a "6 yard" play...

Of course not. Alex Smith OPTED for the 6-yard play, like he often does.

Originally Posted by temper11

Thank you.... this was my point all along. So, for many people, if he'd have put up 47 points he's a clutch QB, nothing else matters, not the fumble, not the overthrow to Gray, not the intentional grounding... all that "conversation is moot". He put the team on his back, etc etc etc.

But 44pts - "he can't win the big game", can't come through down the stretch, can't step up when it matters most, etc.? In my opinion however, even having scored just the 44pts, he did do all of those things. When the game came down to do or die, Smith and the offense marched down the field. On 4th down and 11, with the entire KC playoff drought history in the balance, Smith throws a dart to his receiver that - if not for a fractured foot - puts the team in FG range and a high probability of putting those all important 3 pts on the board.

You can't say he won the big game because he didn't. That's all there is to it. All of the what if scenarios are meaningless. HE LOST.

Again, I don't blame it on him. But to sit here and act like he did everything he could to win the game and had nothing to do with the fact they lost is disingenuous. He had a fumble in the 3rd quarter too, did he not?

Originally Posted by temper11

And I'm not pretending he is perfect, but likewise I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that he isn't clutch in the pocket, doesn't step up in big games, can't carry his team, isn't calm under pressure, and isn't a franchise QB because 3pts in a 44pt lose says he's not. I will not pretend he is perfect because I do not expect perfection from any QB.

That's why you NEVER say anything critical and respond to everyone who has anything even remotely critical to say about him. Amirite?

[temper11]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

That's why you NEVER say anything critical and respond to everyone who has anything even remotely critical to say about him. Amirite?

No, you are not right. I just brought up his fumble. I just brought up the overthrow to Gray. You say you don't expect perfection and then dwell on the few plays in which he wasn't perfect as an indication that he isn't clutch. No QB is perfect, no player is perfect. But many of those imperfect QB's are still clutch. I think Smith has shown time and time again over the last 3 years, that he is clutch. I think that Colts game is a perfect illustration of just how clutch he was and that final drive proving it eventhough the points didn't go on the board, his play, what he could control, was clutch.

As far as responding to anything even remotely critical... You said he isn't clutch. I think he is. What's the point of MBs if not to respond when someone says something you don't agree with?

[Sandy Vagina]

to: temper11

Pretty obvious that you are dealing with a "former" hater of Alex that either can't stop that hateful nit-picking habit that built up for months.... or is just completely full of shit to begin with about "suddenly being in his corner now."

[temper11]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

And it's still a negative play. A QB with more arm strength might have been able to throw it away without incurring a penalty.

And a QB with less poise might have chucked up an interception, what's your point. Again... you keep saying you don't require perfection, and then nitpick a perceived imperfection of lack of arm strength when being sacked.

Originally Posted by htismaqe

So more excuses and moral victories. Got it..

If you want to call sound, proven play calling excuses - ok. It isn't at all uncommon for teams to attempt short passes or draw plays when facing large down and distances when they have two or more downs to work with. That's not an excuse that's just football 101. Moral victories?

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Or you opt to dump it off to Dexter McCluster, who is know for his ability to break arm tackles and scoot for 1st downs in long-yardage situations.

Of course not. Alex Smith OPTED for the 6-yard play, like he often does.

He opted for a high-percentage play as detailed above and as the situation required - and for the record it worked.

Originally Posted by htismaqe

You can't say he won the big game because he didn't. That's all there is to it. All of the what if scenarios are meaningless. HE LOST.

Again, I don't blame it on him.

WTF?

Originally Posted by htismaqe

But to sit here and act like he did everything he could to win the game and had nothing to do with the fact they lost is disingenuous. He had a fumble in the 3rd quarter too, did he not?

"Not doing everything he could do" implies lack of effort. That's not the case. If you are saying that he wasn't perfect in the loss, no one would argue. I believe I brought up the fumble even before you did. None of that means that he wasn't clutch in that game or hadn't been clutch throughout much of the season.

[temper11]

Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks

to: temper11

Pretty obvious that you are dealing with a "former" hater of Alex that either can't stop that hateful nit-picking habit that built up for months.... or is just completely full of shit to begin with about "suddenly being in his corner now."

I don't know... HT has a lot of good shit to say sometimes. I think he views everything I say through a 49er fan filter - and that's ok. I realize I'm a guest here, unwanted or otherwise.

You look at all the winning QB's in the playoffs and you can't find one that had a better game than Smith, but that one point deficit is cause enough to point out any imperfection in his game while claiming perfection isn't required. Frustrating as an unabashed Smith fan.

[DTLB58]

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

Mark Rypien

What? Hasn't the knock on Smith always been his deep ball?

Rypien's games was the deep ball the year they won the SB.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks

to: temper11

Pretty obvious that you are dealing with a "former" hater of Alex that either can't stop that hateful nit-picking habit that built up for months.... or is just completely full of shit to begin with about "suddenly being in his corner now."

You're about the dumbest poster here and that's saying something.

Now leave the adults to their discussion and stop butting in.