These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by DenverChief

Really? I see medical malpractice lawsuits filed all the time

Most of those are civil cases. They are also monitored by medical doctors and lawyer as to what will be allowed as a case. Very tough cases to win and the doctors protect one another. Do we see the state prosecuting them for criminal neglect though? Unless it's Kevorkian. Or the right to practice certain procedures in the future? That would seem more comparable. Besides being secular and a service provided to the public.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

In Jensen's defense, as a Christian you are to "judge" or basically use good discernment on who you choose to associate with. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) On the other hand your right in that the heart or one thinking emotionally can be very dangerous because it can alter rational thinking. (Jeremiah 17:9) That is where you can fall into criticizing something or someone just because you don't understand. Again the folks involved are totally misguided about biblical truth but like yourself, I was trying to point out to Jensen that one needs to be careful when your quick to judge whats on the surface of others before taking a deep look at yourself first.

You do know that discernment and the type of judging that is going on here are two completely different issues, right?

The simple words: Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Judging Others
Lk. 6.3738, 4142
1	Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2	For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24
3	And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4	Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5	Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6	¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. We all miss this one very frequently, I'm just of the opinion that Jenson is commenting in disgust rather than using what his faith is telling him to use.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Sully

Put you on ignore, at the same time as calling you a coward and ignoring a direct question?

Seriously, that's hilarious.

He is not on ignore other than I reject his opinion as he does not reply to the topic but to the poster. He has no capacity to read beyond a1na2. Basically neither do you, if both of you could there wouldn't be the cheap shots where nobody can see them as well as addressing the topic of the thread rather than being excessively childish and calling names.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by chasedude

I'm not a religious person so it's tough for me to understand why the parents take this kind of action. Wouldn't the love for a child supersede everything else and cause a parent to take action on other means besides faith? I just can't fathom the love over a "spiritual" being over flesh and blood. If we're all made in God's image then why not love your child as God? Too many questions...

Are you a Christian or have some similar religious belief? ( Not being religious doesn't really cut it here, if you have no religious belief you aren't really able to understand what went on, if you do you are rejecting your belief for political expediency IMO.)

If you don't believe in something why would you offer it up to someone you loved?

[Sure-Oz]

How about pray and take her to the dr, stupid ****s

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

the doctors protect one another

and there is your answer why there are rarely criminal cases

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Sure-Oz

How about pray and take her to the dr, stupid ****s

Their belief system did not allow or consider that.

My belief is that God put doctors here as tools for us all, but I am not in a position to question your personal beliefs about doctors, nor should you queston the beliefs of others that believe differently than you.

It's simple. In the USA we have the right to freedom of religion. If this were to go to the Supreme Court that freedom would most likely be subverted due to the need for someone other than you to determine what is best for you and your family. I'm sure that falls under at least a few of the popular "isms" that abound in this contry today.

[Third Eye]

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

I her you now please quote Jesus when he says the only healing can come from me via your prayers.

Originally Posted by Jesus

The only healing can come from me via your prayers.

There you go.

[Sure-Oz]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Their belief system did not allow or consider that.

My belief is that God put doctors here as tools for us all, but I am not in a position to question your personal beliefs about doctors, nor should you queston the beliefs of others that believe differently than you.

It's simple. In the USA we have the right to freedom of religion. If this were to go to the Supreme Court that freedom would most likely be subverted due to the need for someone other than you to determine what is best for you and your family. I'm sure that falls under at least a few of the popular "isms" that abound in this contry today.

I'd think common sense would show up somewhere in their brains no matter what they believe? If we didn't have dr's and medicines etc the pop. would be near zero

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Sure-Oz

I'd think common sense would show up somewhere in their brains no matter what they believe? If we didn't have dr's and medicines etc the pop. would be near zero

Common sense is not the issue here.

If you believe that something wrong are you going to submit the child that you love to it? You are missing the belief and faith issue at hand.

Would you place your child in a pool of water if you felt that water was too deep and dangerous and would kill them? The family had a similar situation, in their religion doctors are not something you turn to for any reason.

[chasedude]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Are you a Christian or have some similar religious belief? ( Not being religious doesn't really cut it here, if you have no religious belief you aren't really able to understand what went on, if you do you are rejecting your belief for political expediency IMO.)

If you don't believe in something why would you offer it up to someone you loved?

I'm not a christian nor am I affiliated with any organized religion. I find it a waste of time and mental energy.

Why would I have to have a religious belief to understand what's going on? Do you not think I'm intellectual enough to grasp that these people are putting a God that, obviously did nothing to help, above the welfare of their child.

We live in the 22 century, it pains me to see something as archaic like this still being practiced. Wake up to common sense, this is my point.

[Sure-Oz]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Common sense is not the issue here.

If you believe that something wrong are you going to submit the child that you love to it? You are missing the belief and faith issue at hand.

Would you place your child in a pool of water if you felt that water was too deep and dangerous and would kill them? The family had a similar situation, in their religion doctors are not something you turn to for any reason.

That's fine and dandy in what they believe in but the child got no say or choice in weather they could be treated. This is negligence if anything...their child died because they didn't take proper action. Are you telling me you would be fine with your child dieing as well in this fashion if that was your religion. Even though you knew that they could possibly live doing this. I'd take a bullet for my child, makes me wonder if they could get that concept.

[CosmicPal]

As much as I despise that religious-fanatic group from Topeka, I would think that even they would have the common sense to take one of their children to the doctor.

[Sure-Oz]

Originally Posted by CosmicPal

As much as I despise that religious-fanatic group from Topeka, I would think that even they would have the common sense to take one of their children to the doctor.

Wonder if the last dr on earth was gay would they take the children then?

[sedated]

Originally Posted by a1na2

If you believe that something wrong are you going to submit the child that you love to it? You are missing the belief and faith issue at hand.

and the parents believe that they sent their child to heaven, rather than prolonging life on earth while ending her chance to go to heaven in the end.

I (we) may think they are a couple of whack-jobs, but they feel better, and that's all that really matters I guess.



I've seen families torn apart because of religion. There's no reasoning with religious people. So just let them live their sideways life, and keep them from doing harm to you.