If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? - Page 7

**jAZ** · 02-20-2007, 12:02 AM

I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality".

If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html

Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine
POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007

By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann
CNN

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm.

But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God.

"The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says.

De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader )

"He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers.

"De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones."

Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978?

Prophets 'spoke to me'
De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world.

But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries.

De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict.

De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels.

"The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says.

The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other:

Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus.

De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes.

The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States.

Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex
If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty.

He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers.

And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm?

Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood.

The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth.

"Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross."

And de Jesus says that means him.

So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin.

He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose.

"If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.

El Jefe · 02-21-2007, 04:06 PM

redrum_69, Oh so since I am a Christian I cant disagree with anyone or call somebody stupid ok..........Well am i allowed to take a crap or is that to bad for a Christian to do? Yeah I am flawed I am being told Im not a good Christian by someone who doesnt have a clue what that means or for that matter what he is even talking about.

El Jefe · 02-21-2007, 04:08 PM

I have to go to Church where I am the game director for a Childs Youth Ministry on Wednesday nights, we try to get the kids on a good Godly path, so they dont end up being like you when they are adults. Oh I am being a hypocrite again.

El Jefe · 02-21-2007, 04:10 PM

I guess if you are a Christian you cant disagree with anyones opinion or call anybody stupid, for those of you who didnt know that you should take notes. Or you could buy the book redrum_69 explains Christianity. I will be on later tonight redrum to see what other ridiculous statement you can come up with.

Adept Havelock · 02-21-2007, 04:14 PM

How will we know Jesus has returned? In this day and age, I assume he will hire a PR firm and do a press conference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Heinlein

The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.

********************************************************************
One man's religion is another man's belly laugh.

********************************************************************

Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it.

Redrum_69 · 02-21-2007, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

redrum_69, Oh so since I am a Christian I cant disagree with anyone or call somebody stupid ok..........Well am i allowed to take a crap or is that to bad for a Christian to do? Yeah I am flawed I am being told Im not a good Christian by someone who doesnt have a clue what that means or for that matter what he is even talking about.

yadda yadda yadda

quick change of subject...touchy are we.

Let me draw it out for you.

YOu begin by chosing to judge everyone:

We (that is us who have accepted Jesus into our hearts) will know who Jesus is because he will come in a twinkling of an eye and take us back with him to heaven. The rest of you will be Left Behind just like the movie. After Jesus takes us home there will be an anti-christ that comes and unites the world under one religion. This guy they are talking about is nothing more than a joke and he is not the anti-christ or anywhere near it. Stupid Mexican.

Then you follow it up with this gem..you hipocrite bastard:

InChiefsHell, the left behind series is bad theology as is the rapture itself". You do not have a clue what you are talking about Left Behind theology is very close, and as for the rapture it will happen just like it says in the bible. Stewie "werent you suppose to catch a ride behind a comet a few years back", I do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Then: at this point you judge someones song...

Mr. Cooter, I think that song sucks.

followed by stooping to judge and call names:

CoMoChief, you are stupid.

Then...to top that off:

Listen you guys dont really get it. From a Christian perspective he will come back for one reason and that is to bring us back with him to heaven. He isnt gonna be living down here or anything he is gonna come back to get us, so nobody will think anything about him because he will take us back in the twinkling of an eye. Iowanian, that isnt very funny.

So then you get all bent out of shape because I call you a rat bastard, born from a trailer park methwhore...who comes on to an internet chat board...ABOUT THE CHIEFS...preaching about shit THAT NO ONE HAS A CLUE WHAT WILL REALLY HAPPEN....and forcing your opinions and ideas on all of us...who would rather swap stories about how many homeless men your mom banged in the alley while it took you to come up with your posts.

So then I call you two face..because thats what you are

Redrum_69 · 02-21-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

I have to go to Church where I am the game director for a Childs Youth Ministry on Wednesday nights, we try to get the kids on a good Godly path, so they dont end up being like you when they are adults. Oh I am being a hypocrite again.

hey, I know, lets post some bullshit on an internet chat board, cuz i like to see my own words..and share what I do.

I call bullshit on your statement above

Redrum_69 · 02-21-2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

I guess if you are a Christian you cant disagree with anyones opinion or call anybody stupid, for those of you who didnt know that you should take notes. Or you could buy the book redrum_69 explains Christianity. I will be on later tonight redrum to see what other ridiculous statement you can come up with.

Then you'll get home from church tonight and surf porn for a few hours while reading bible verses

El Jefe · 02-21-2007, 04:27 PM

Yeah I dont get on porn. Thats for people like you who are 35 and have no life. But I do read my bible everyday and I will have read the bible through by the end of this year.Its a reading schedule that tells you how much you have to read to get through it in a year. You should think about investing in a bible it might help your agressiveness.

**HemiEd** · 02-21-2007, 05:02 PM

nice thread. Oh, and most of the Jim Jones people did not commit suicide, they were murdered by the bastard.

stevieray · 02-21-2007, 05:11 PM

Every knee will bend, and every head will bow.

Delano · 02-21-2007, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redrum_69

hey, I know, lets post some bullshit on an internet chat board, cuz i like to see my own words..and share what I do.

That's you in a nutshell dude.

Sully · 02-21-2007, 08:20 PM

I like to picture Jesus in a Tuxedo T-shirt, cause it says, like, I wanna be formal, but I'm here to party, too. Cause I like to party, so I like my Jesus to party.

El Jefe · 02-21-2007, 08:41 PM

Delano, "That's you in a nutshell dude", that was the best joke of the night.

Jenson71 · 02-21-2007, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

How will we know Jesus has returned? In this day and age, I assume he will hire a PR firm and do a press conference.

I doubt that and I think anyone who studies his life would doubt that as well. He would probably live very similar to the way Mother Theresa lived her own life.

Redrum_69 · 02-22-2007, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

Yeah I dont get on porn. Thats for people like you who are 35 and have no life. But I do read my bible everyday and I will have read the bible through by the end of this year.Its a reading schedule that tells you how much you have to read to get through it in a year. You should think about investing in a bible it might help your agressiveness.

Oh he of little faith

I've read my bible

I was raised Christian

I was baptized into Catholicism, after taking over a year of Catechuman classes in Lawrence, I was baptized on Easter vigil. I know how the Christian mind works, having been raised strong in Christianity, attending church and youth group all through grade school, high school, and even some in college. But my wife wanted a traditional Phillipine/Catholic wedding, so I made sure she received her wish. At the start I did the baptism for her...then as I was attending each class it intrigued me so much that I knew it was something I was doing for me.

I've read the bible twice, once in the view of a Christian, the other as the perspective of a Catholic. I respect both religions, any religion for that matter...Just as long as they dont push their beliefs on to me.

I have no tolerance for atheists.

02-20-2007, 12:02 AM
jAZ Supporter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Casino cash: $9847493	If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality". If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned? http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007 By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann CNN MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm. But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God. "The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says. De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader ) "He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers. "De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones." Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978? Prophets 'spoke to me' De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world. But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries. De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict. De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels. "The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says. The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other: Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus. De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes. The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States. Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty. He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers. And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm? Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood. The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth. "Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross." And de Jesus says that means him. So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin. He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose. "If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.
Posts: 24,799

02-21-2007, 04:06 PM	#91
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	redrum_69, Oh so since I am a Christian I cant disagree with anyone or call somebody stupid ok..........Well am i allowed to take a crap or is that to bad for a Christian to do? Yeah I am flawed I am being told Im not a good Christian by someone who doesnt have a clue what that means or for that matter what he is even talking about.
Posts: 8,540

02-21-2007, 04:08 PM	#92
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	I have to go to Church where I am the game director for a Childs Youth Ministry on Wednesday nights, we try to get the kids on a good Godly path, so they dont end up being like you when they are adults. Oh I am being a hypocrite again.
Posts: 8,540

02-21-2007, 04:10 PM	#93
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	I guess if you are a Christian you cant disagree with anyones opinion or call anybody stupid, for those of you who didnt know that you should take notes. Or you could buy the book redrum_69 explains Christianity. I will be on later tonight redrum to see what other ridiculous statement you can come up with.
Posts: 8,540

02-21-2007, 04:27 PM	#98
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	Yeah I dont get on porn. Thats for people like you who are 35 and have no life. But I do read my bible everyday and I will have read the bible through by the end of this year.Its a reading schedule that tells you how much you have to read to get through it in a year. You should think about investing in a bible it might help your agressiveness.
Posts: 8,540

02-21-2007, 05:02 PM	#99
HemiEd Supporter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ozarks Casino cash: $3040564	nice thread. Oh, and most of the Jim Jones people did not commit suicide, they were murdered by the bastard.
Posts: 33,486

02-21-2007, 05:11 PM	#100
stevieray best in the biz Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Under Pressure Casino cash: $2345273	Every knee will bend, and every head will bow.
Posts: 71,343

02-21-2007, 08:20 PM	#102
Sully It Goes On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Lees Summit Casino cash: $10026331	I like to picture Jesus in a Tuxedo T-shirt, cause it says, like, I wanna be formal, but I'm here to party, too. Cause I like to party, so I like my Jesus to party. __________________ "And I don't wish that girl any bad luck," he said, "but I hope she gets hit with a car." - Tommy Lasorda
Posts: 18,295

02-21-2007, 08:41 PM	#103
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	Delano, "That's you in a nutshell dude", that was the best joke of the night.
Posts: 8,540