***Official 2016 STL Cardinals Thread***

[BigRedChief]

• 2011 World Series Championship
• 2012 NLCS. One win from another WS appearance.
• 2013 World Series. Two wins from another World Series Championship
• 2014 NLCS. Three wins from another WS appearance
• 2015 Central Division title. Won 100 games. Lost in the NLDS.
• Made the postseason 11 times in the last 15 seasons.
• 67 post season wins since 2004. 24+ wins more than any other team.

SI article on our off season, Gives us a "A". ??:
http://www.si.com/mlb/2016/02/12/win...ouis-cardinals

2015 III thread:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=295296
2015 II thread:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=293412
2015 I thread:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=289085

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Then sell.

If you aren't as good as the guys that are out there making noise in the market, sell Matt Carpenter and wait until you think you might be.

Sitting here spinning your wheels isn't getting you anywhere either.

That's fine too, and I would prefer that path, but I don't think that setting money or draft picks on fire (especially with the changing FA comp process coming) for marginal upgrades is a particularly wise move either, nor do they have a massive impetus to sell Carpenter right now, as his FA is not impending, so it will always be a multi-year acquisition.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

That's fine too, and I would prefer that path, but I don't think that setting money or draft picks on fire (especially with the changing FA comp process coming) for marginal upgrades is a particularly wise move either, nor do they have a massive impetus to sell Carpenter right now, as his FA is not impending, so it will always be a multi-year acquisition.

I don't disagree at all.

But the fact is that you and I could do nothing. It's John Mozeliak's ****ing job to pick a direction and pursue it.

And for consecutive seasons he's just kinda watched the world explode around him and shrugged. It's like the Heyward thing completely took his balls.

He lacks the wherewithal to actually compete with the big dogs right now or make the tough decisions that might position us to do so in the future. That's the kind of shit that makes you the Phillies in 3 seasons. And while it's cheaper than going the Arte Moreno route and throwing money at players that aren't good, it still yields a mediocre product with no path towards productivity.

Simply not being shitty at your job is no reason to keep it and right now, 'not shitty' is the nicest thing you can say about John Mozeliak. He damn sure isn't doing anything good.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Then sell.

If you aren't as good as the guys that are out there making noise in the market, sell Matt Carpenter and wait until you think you might be.

Sitting here spinning your wheels isn't getting you anywhere either.

these prices for trades are outrageous. No way we trade Reyes or Martinez for These guys that were picked up by other teams that paid that kind of price.

We have talent that are 2-3 years away. Plenty of pitching in the pipeline. Some should work out. Pay Martinez waino's money plus pitcher inflation money. We should have a top shelf playoff ready pitching staff.

Dewitt should pay for some defense and hitting. If that happens we should be ready to compete for a WS again in two years.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

these prices for trades are outrageous. No way we trade Reyes or Martinez for These guys that were picked up by other teams that paid that kind of price.

We have talent that are 2-3 years away. Plenty of pitching in the pipeline. Some should work out. Pay Martinez waino's money plus pitcher inflation money. We should have a top shelf playoff ready pitching staff.

Dewitt should pay for some defense and hitting. If that happens we should be ready to compete for a WS again in two years.

That's why you sell.

2-3 years from now Carpenter will be firmly in his decline phase anyway. If you're not going to overpay for now, build for tomorrow.

The Cardinals have an asset with 4 years of team control and a hitting profile that teams will kill for. He's a massive asset.

You can't be dogmatic; if the market and your place in the competitive cycle says to trade guys away and wait for the Cubs to run out of pitchers they can buy and/or pre-arb years on their young stars, then do it.

Because again - I can do nothing. Mozeliak's job is to be a hell of a lot more dynamic than what I can do.

[DJ's left nut]

Cardinals lost Allen Cordoba to the Padres with the #3 overall pick in the Rule 5.

Cordoba won the GCL MVP in 2015 at age 20, then proceeded to wreck the league this year with a .362/.427/.495 slash line, 22 steals to 4 CS and an 18/22 BB/KK rate. Advanced hitter with plus skills at shortstop.

So in other words, a guy that's doing things at 20 and 21 years old that we would KILL to see Delvin Perez accomplish at the same age, and we left him unprotected so that we could keep Zach Duke on the 40 man - a pending FA that won't pitch this year due to TJ surgery. Oh, and so we could also keep Chad Huffman - a 31 yr old 1b who's taken all of 21 major league ABs and none since 2010 as well as Zach Phillips, a 29 yr old lefty reliever who managed an ERA in the high 4s in AAA last year.

And why? Because John !@#$ing Mozeliak sucks at his goddamn job. The guy can't gauge league interest at all. You cut Duke, Huffman and Phillips and you could've kept Hazlebaker, Cooney and Cordoba. Instead you hold onto a guy that will literally not even pitch for you and 2 old guys who have demonstrated that they suck at baseball.

[Mother****erJones]

I thought Eaton would go to STL honestly, but not after what I saw Nationals give up. STL isn't dumb enough to overpay for Eaton. Washington was desperate.

I have heard the Sox are looking for a catcher and have asked for Kelly in discussions. What are your thoughts on Carson Kelly?

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

That's why you sell.

2-3 years from now Carpenter will be firmly in his decline phase anyway. If you're not going to overpay for now, build for tomorrow.

The Cardinals have an asset with 4 years of team control and a hitting profile that teams will kill for. He's a massive asset.

You can't be dogmatic; if the market and your place in the competitive cycle says to trade guys away and wait for the Cubs to run out of pitchers they can buy and/or pre-arb years on their young stars, then do it.

Because again - I can do nothing. Mozeliak's job is to be a hell of a lot more dynamic than what I can do.

Question is can the Cardinals fan base handle a rebuild? They kind of have the Hunt Family/Carl Peterson vibe of be competitive, granted they have had more success obliviously. It's still a franchise that is driven by ticket sales, be interesting to see if a rebuild/down years would affect that.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Mother****erJones

I thought Eaton would go to STL honestly, but not after what I saw Nationals give up. STL isn't dumb enough to overpay for Eaton. Washington was desperate.

I have heard the Sox are looking for a catcher and have asked for Kelly in discussions. What are your thoughts on Carson Kelly?

Cardinals can't move him.

I don't think he's a superstar, but he's a no-doubt major league starting catcher, IMO. And that alone gives him a ton of value.

Keep him in AAA this year to save the service time, start him on a big league apprenticeship in July of next year and come 2019 he takes over for Molina at 24 years old with 6 years of team control still remaining.

But ultimately I'd imagine we just have him come north this year so Matheny can start him twice a month, burn out Molina by August and then have some stiff like Alberto Rosario come in and get three times the number of PAs Kelly gets down the stretch.

Because Matheny.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

Question is can the Cardinals fan base handle a rebuild? They kind of have the Hunt Family/Carl Peterson vibe of be competitive, granted they have had more success obliviously. It's still a franchise that is driven by ticket sales, be interesting to see if a rebuild/down years would affect that.

Bill Dewitt has more money than god and one of the most long-term fanbases from one of America's greatest baseball cities.

DeWitt can bankroll 5 years of massive, sustained losses if he wanted to and it wouldn't make a dent. Moreover, he wouldn't have to because a great deal of this fan base isn't stupid. Oh, and by re-building, he could significantly reduce his payroll obligations and still turn a profit.

If The Cardinals fanbase can't handle a rebuild then no such fanbase exists. But a rebuild would cut into his margins a bit for a few years. And for DeWitt, it appears that THAT'S what he's truly unwilling to deal with.

This has nothing to do with the Cardinal fanbase, regardless of how Mozeliak wants to spin it. This is his boss telling him that he'd rather have a .500 team that gets 3 million in the door and makes $25 million/season than a sub .500 team that's building towards a better future and only makes $5 million/season.

Dewitt got his ballpark and now ballpark village has had its final stages approved. Now he's just looking to milk this for all its worth. He's gotta be loving the cable money he's going to get in '18 because lord knows that's not going back into the ballclub.

[Mother****erJones]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Cardinals can't move him.

I don't think he's a superstar, but he's a no-doubt major league starting catcher, IMO. And that alone gives him a ton of value.

Keep him in AAA this year to save the service time, start him on a big league apprenticeship in July of next year and come 2019 he takes over for Molina at 24 years old with 6 years of team control still remaining.

But ultimately I'd imagine we just have him come north this year so Matheny can start him twice a month, burn out Molina by August and then have some stiff like Alberto Rosario come in and get three times the number of PAs Kelly gets down the stretch.

Because Matheny.

Thanks for the input man. I've wanted the Sox to find a young catcher for awhile. Personally, I've watched the Sox trade prospects for vets since I've been following since the mid-90s. Most haven't worked out and some vet for prospects have worked. I remember trading Mike Cameron for Paul Konerko. That worked gloriously. The only player the Sox traded that I regretted was Gio Gonzalez in the Swisher deal.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Mother****erJones

I thought Eaton would go to STL honestly, but not after what I saw Nationals give up. STL isn't dumb enough to overpay for Eaton. Washington was desperate.

I have heard the Sox are looking for a catcher and have asked for Kelly in discussions. What are your thoughts on Carson Kelly?

he is the only plan to replace Molina when he retires. There is noone else. He can't be traded.

[jd1020]

Cardinals got their man!

Agreed to a deal with Dexter Fowler.

Sources say #Cardinals made over-the-top offer to Dexter Fowler, to be sure to land CF. @Frank_Cusumano reports he's en route for physical.

— Derrick Goold (@dgoold) December 9, 2016

Sounds like they overpaid to keep him from going to Toronto, too. Jon Heyman wrote an article saying that rumors were the contract put Fowler in the range of 5/80+.

Have a feeling those defensive metrics are going to nose dive in St. Louis.

[rico]

I love it.

[Miles]

Guess I'm sort of alright with this and hardly excited with giving the pick to the Cubs. Sounding like it might be 1 year and at least 20ish million more than expected.

Ugh just looked up and thought he was a year younger. Getting age 31 to 36 seasons if 5 year rumor is true.

[VAChief]

Originally Posted by Miles

Guess I'm sort of alright with this and hardly excited with giving the pick to the Cubs. Sounding like it might be 1 year and at least 20ish million more than expected.

Ugh just looked up and thought he was a year younger. Getting age 31 to 36 seasons if 5 year rumor is true.

5 years, between 80 and 90 million.