Chiefs I think I understand the new defense. - Page 3

Chris Meck · 04-27-2009, 12:24 PM

Ok.
So, I've been confused like everyone else, but I think I now understand what we're going to be doing defensively and how the personnel will fit.

In what our version of the 3-4 will be:

the left outside linebacker will line up on the outside shoulder of the tackle to head up on the TE . This is more like a classic LDE in terms of responsibilities. Outside containment/pass rush type stuff. This is where Hali fits as an OLB. Basically pretty much the same as his role in the 4-3. He can play a little lighter if he likes, as he won't be singled up on the Tackle pretty much ever because:

the LDE will line up on the outside shoulder of the RG (B gap). His job is to shoot that gap between the guard and tackle, attacking the line of scrimmage, disrupting the blocking scheme. This is where you'd use Glenn Dorsey. The role is very similar to what a penetrating DT in a 4-3 scheme would be doing. This is what Haley said they'd do with Dorsey in the PC yesterday. Magee is probably a rotational player at both DE spots. So no more 'Dorsey is a bad fit at NT' talk. That's not the plan, because:

Ron Edwards and Tank Tyler are your NT. However, they're not going to be traditional NT's in the Ted Washington mold. They too will have one gap responsibility, usually shading to the strong side on the center's outside shoulder, (A gap) but not always. They don't need to be 350 pound space eaters, as they're not playing two gap. Personally, I think Tyler is the most promising guy at this spot physically.

Your RILB would be the player that is basically lined up on the center/LG gap (albeit a few yards off the ball) in what would be nearly identical to a classic MLB role (this is what Zach Thomas meant about playing MLB).

Your LILB (Derrick Johnson's spot) is your 'flow to the ball' playmaker. He's covered by the LOLB outside and the LDE right in front of him. On a running play up the gut, for example, the center would take on ONE of the ILB's, but not likely get both, so this guy will probably rack up a ton of tackles.

Your RDE (Jackson) will be on the LG's outside shoulder, with one gap responsibility there. If the guard can't handle him alone, they're in real trouble, because outside the tackle is the ROLB (or rush-backer). Outside containment responsibilities, yes-and rush the passer. This is what Vrabel fits in. he's only a year removed from double digit sacks, and that's because he was injured. He needs only to require the Tackle's full attention to be successful, because that means the LDE has got a single man to beat. The whole point of a 6-5 295 monster DE with long arms is that you HAVE to double him. So choose your poison.

Safeties will play a more prominent role in run support than they did in cover 2 (at least our version, in which they were basically non-existant) and corners will probably play some man. I'm not worried about our secondary, actually, I feel pretty good about it and not too much is different for them.

I think I'm pretty accurate about the responsibilities and the personnel I named is based on the interviews with Pioli and/or Haley.

Did I get it right?

Chiefnj2 · 04-27-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I think that Zach was playing the other LB spot, with different responsibilities. I think in THIS hybrid, that spot would look almost exactly like a MLB spot in a 4-3, in that you'd be looking at the center basically uncovered when you line up. Hence, his comments about getting back to playing MLB.

again, this is all just my theory.

Again, I have no idea what they are going to run, but if it is the same as the Cards 4-3 under, then, IMHO, taking Jackson at #3 was a horrible mistake.

googlegoogle · 04-27-2009, 01:11 PM

I heard rumor on the other board that Derrick Johnson will lose his starting job. Pioli doesn't like him.

Chris Meck · 04-27-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Again, I have no idea what they are going to run, but if it is the same as the Cards 4-3 under, then, IMHO, taking Jackson at #3 was a horrible mistake.

well, I don't think it IS a 4-3 under. I think it's more like a one gap 3-4.

and while I know it's great fun to assume that the new gm and coach are fools and that we all know better how to assemble and run the team, I don't think they're stupid and would target a player that is a horrible fit for the new defense they're drafting him to play in...and then repeat that horrible mistake in the 3rd round with a very similar player.

not meaning to be snarky, I just don't think a 4-3 is the idea here.

Wa-Z · 04-27-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by googlegoogle

I heard rumor on the other board that Derrick Johnson will lose his starting job. Pioli doesn't like him.

No board is more credible than chiefsplanet!!

htismaqe · 04-27-2009, 01:15 PM

TheGuardian has pretty much nailed the defensive scheme, there's a series of posts by him over the past week that spell it out in great detail.

htismaqe · 04-27-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

I have no idea what KC is going to run. If Dallas plays a 1 gap scheme, and you think KC is going to play a similar scheme, why did Zach Thomas talk about getting away from Dallas' scheme where he wasn't that comfortable.

In Dallas' scheme, similar to what we ran in the early 90's, the ILB's have responsbilities that nearly mirror the MLB and WLB spots in a traditional 4-3. Thomas' issue wasn't with the 3-4 as much as it was that he was playing the "weakside" ILB instead of the "middle" ILB.

**kysirsoze** · 04-27-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by googlegoogle

I heard rumor on the other board that Derrick Johnson will lose his starting job. Pioli doesn't like him.

That would be a waste of talent on a team that is short on it.

Chris Meck · 04-27-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

TheGuardian has pretty much nailed the defensive scheme, there's a series of posts by him over the past week that spell it out in great detail.

oh, that's right. Only the personnel was different. Dorsey is being looked at "outside" according to Haley. And of course, pre-draft we didn't know about Jackson or Magee. and Haley indicated that Tyler and Edwards are at NT.

I think what Guardian had is pretty much what i'm thinking it'll be too...

Chiefnj2 · 04-27-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

TheGuardian has pretty much nailed the defensive scheme, there's a series of posts by him over the past week that spell it out in great detail.

I thought he talked about the 4-3 under.

Chris Meck · 04-27-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

I thought he talked about the 4-3 under.

or maybe that was it. I don't remember.

htismaqe · 04-27-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

I thought he talked about the 4-3 under.

He explained the 4-3 under, but I think he's looking for us to run more of a mix of 1-gap and 2-gap up front. Usually your entire front would run one of the other, but it looks like we might be using both, at the same time, which would be rather unconventional.

Kylo Ren · 04-27-2009, 01:36 PM

But where is Napoleon Harris and Kendrell Bell going to play??!! Come on! Don't dodge the hard questions.

**kysirsoze** · 04-27-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Wayne

But where is Napoleon Harris and Kendrell Bell going to play??!! Come on! Don't dodge the hard questions.

Bell would have done much better if he had come along now rather than when he did, right? Wouldn't he have fit in that ROLB pass rushing spot pretty well? Talk about a guy being used for something that he wasn't equipped to do.

(Yes I know it was a sarcastic question.

)

**cdcox** · 04-27-2009, 01:58 PM

I have a hard time seeing Hali lined up against a TE. You can get SS help on the deeper routes, but Hali against a TE is a complete mismatch in the short passing game.

Chris Meck · 04-27-2009, 02:04 PM

I don't think that'd be his job, unless as a zone blitz assignment. I think his job would on a passing down would be to hit the TE, preventing a clean release, and rush the QB. the actual coverage would fall to the ILB and/or SS.

again, I don't know, I'm speculating. I am assuming that Pioli and Haley know football, and I can't imagine that they think Hali is going to be a traditional OLB. I don't think that's the planned responsibility.

04-27-2009, 12:24 PM
Chris Meck MVP Join Date: May 2001 Location: midtown KC Casino cash: $1954910	I think I understand the new defense. Ok. So, I've been confused like everyone else, but I think I now understand what we're going to be doing defensively and how the personnel will fit. In what our version of the 3-4 will be: the left outside linebacker will line up on the outside shoulder of the tackle to head up on the TE . This is more like a classic LDE in terms of responsibilities. Outside containment/pass rush type stuff. This is where Hali fits as an OLB. Basically pretty much the same as his role in the 4-3. He can play a little lighter if he likes, as he won't be singled up on the Tackle pretty much ever because: the LDE will line up on the outside shoulder of the RG (B gap). His job is to shoot that gap between the guard and tackle, attacking the line of scrimmage, disrupting the blocking scheme. This is where you'd use Glenn Dorsey. The role is very similar to what a penetrating DT in a 4-3 scheme would be doing. This is what Haley said they'd do with Dorsey in the PC yesterday. Magee is probably a rotational player at both DE spots. So no more 'Dorsey is a bad fit at NT' talk. That's not the plan, because: Ron Edwards and Tank Tyler are your NT. However, they're not going to be traditional NT's in the Ted Washington mold. They too will have one gap responsibility, usually shading to the strong side on the center's outside shoulder, (A gap) but not always. They don't need to be 350 pound space eaters, as they're not playing two gap. Personally, I think Tyler is the most promising guy at this spot physically. Your RILB would be the player that is basically lined up on the center/LG gap (albeit a few yards off the ball) in what would be nearly identical to a classic MLB role (this is what Zach Thomas meant about playing MLB). Your LILB (Derrick Johnson's spot) is your 'flow to the ball' playmaker. He's covered by the LOLB outside and the LDE right in front of him. On a running play up the gut, for example, the center would take on ONE of the ILB's, but not likely get both, so this guy will probably rack up a ton of tackles. Your RDE (Jackson) will be on the LG's outside shoulder, with one gap responsibility there. If the guard can't handle him alone, they're in real trouble, because outside the tackle is the ROLB (or rush-backer). Outside containment responsibilities, yes-and rush the passer. This is what Vrabel fits in. he's only a year removed from double digit sacks, and that's because he was injured. He needs only to require the Tackle's full attention to be successful, because that means the LDE has got a single man to beat. The whole point of a 6-5 295 monster DE with long arms is that you HAVE to double him. So choose your poison. Safeties will play a more prominent role in run support than they did in cover 2 (at least our version, in which they were basically non-existant) and corners will probably play some man. I'm not worried about our secondary, actually, I feel pretty good about it and not too much is different for them. I think I'm pretty accurate about the responsibilities and the personnel I named is based on the interviews with Pioli and/or Haley. Did I get it right?
Posts: 17,498

04-27-2009, 01:11 PM	#32
googlegoogle Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Casino cash: $10004900	I heard rumor on the other board that Derrick Johnson will lose his starting job. Pioli doesn't like him.
Posts: 4,700

04-27-2009, 01:15 PM	#35
htismaqe 'Tis my eye! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Chiefsplanet Casino cash: $10269900	TheGuardian has pretty much nailed the defensive scheme, there's a series of posts by him over the past week that spell it out in great detail.
Posts: 100,022

04-27-2009, 01:36 PM	#42
Kylo Ren Grandson of Darth Vader Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Starkiller Base Casino cash: $10015175	But where is Napoleon Harris and Kendrell Bell going to play??!! Come on! Don't dodge the hard questions.
Posts: 10,197

04-27-2009, 01:58 PM	#44
cdcox www.nfl-forecast.com Join Date: Sep 2000 Casino cash: $2361769	I have a hard time seeing Hali lined up against a TE. You can get SS help on the deeper routes, but Hali against a TE is a complete mismatch in the short passing game.
Posts: 45,536

04-27-2009, 02:04 PM	#45
Chris Meck MVP Join Date: May 2001 Location: midtown KC Casino cash: $1954910	I don't think that'd be his job, unless as a zone blitz assignment. I think his job would on a passing down would be to hit the TE, preventing a clean release, and rush the QB. the actual coverage would fall to the ILB and/or SS. again, I don't know, I'm speculating. I am assuming that Pioli and Haley know football, and I can't imagine that they think Hali is going to be a traditional OLB. I don't think that's the planned responsibility.
Posts: 17,498