Super Bowl Coaches who didn't deserve credit?

[Nickhead]

There are a lot of coaches that get fired, quit, or are traded. Then are replaced with someone else. Low and behold, the new coach finds himself in the Super Bowl. Two year window, Win or Lose, what coaches could you say, simply rode the coat tails of the previous regime to stardome? We all know Jimmy Johnson has three super bowl rings, and Switzer has none. Does Tomlin replacing Cower count? Gary Kubiak? What are your opinions on coaches that get more credit than they deserve.

No other coach that I can think of has enjoyed a reputation built on such a flimsy foundation as Jon Gruden. Yes, he helped bring the Oakland Raiders back to respectability after a decade lost in the wilds. But in Oakland, he was never the big game coach the team needed, putting together a mediocre 2-2 playoff record. However, he made his bones by winning the Super Bowl following the 2002 season – a game in which he vanquished his former team, the Raiders. Of course, Gruden had a few things working in his favor – first, he inherited a stocked and loaded Tampa Bay Buccaneers team from Tony Dungy. Make no mistake, it was Dungy’s team that won that Super Bowl. Secondly, Gruden faced his former assistant, Bill Callahan, in that fateful title game. And Callahan, who was most assuredly not a good coach, didn’t change a thing from the plays Gruden ran, to the terminology used, to the signals the team used on the field. It’s a lot easier to win a big game and make it look easy when you know exactly what play is coming at you at any given time. Following that Super Bowl win, after Gruden was allowed to put his own stamp on the team, Tampa Bay enjoyed far less success. Despite that fact though, Gruden continues to be one of the most sought after coaches in the NFL.

http://www.thesportster.com/football...s-of-all-time/

[ModSocks]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I don't agree completely with that analysis of Gruden.

Consider the following facts:

Gruden did inherit a fully-loaded team which was built by Dungy, but that was mainly on the defensive side. Dungy didn't rebuild the defense on his own, but with the help of Monte Kiffin the DC who was also brilliant. It was one of the best defenses in the league.

Dungy himself couldn't really pull off the big win though despite his off-season appearances for the team after years of being considered losers. Gruden was brought in to improve the offense and quarterbacks. Brad Johnson wasn't the greatest QB but he did make the Pro Bowl that year. The defense was still the strongest part of the team though.

It may be date-coincident that the Bucs won that year Gruden came on, but the change was still needed to push it beyond just making the playoffs. The Raider's weakness was their defense—the opposite of the Bucs. So that's the match-up that met in that SB and it was just the right one for the Bucs.

So I think Gruden deserves his share of that SB credit and in a major way because his knowledge of the Raiders. TB dominated the Raiders on offensive plays. The most damning reason was because Gruden still knew Raider's playbook, and the Raiders hadn't even changed their audibles that Gruden installed. Lynch came right out said after teh SB, 'cuz I heard him, they knew what plays were being enacted which made those interceptions easy. Lynch said those Raider plays were all practiced with Gruden before the SB. Gruden would play Gannon at QB. I say that was just the thing that finally pushed them up the notch they needed to finally winning a SB, along with the luck of a perfect match-up despite Oakland being heavily favored.

Gruden was also very highly paid—some would say overpaid. I think it was just a year or so ago that his very expensive contract was finally paid off. I don't think that helped in paying talent once the SB over. That and the owners weren't as committed to winning once they bought Manchester United. Lots of fans complained about that. I remember when the Bucs rebranded the entire team's look while the team was also revamped. With the Patriots, you have an owner committed to winning, as well as a coach and QB. The Buc's no longer had that. Plus their new branding sucks big time. Just ugly uni's.

WTF????

A solid football take by BEP?

Oh man. This has me freaked out a little bit. Like something odd is going to happen today.

This is some twilight zone shit. I am a creature of habit. I log in around the same time everyday and i expect the same posters to make the same kind of posts.

This has thrown me for a loop. Completely thrown off my day now. Thanks BEP. You ruined everything.

[MatriculatingHank]

Ditka, Ditka, Ditka

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

WTF????

A solid football take by BEP?

Oh man. This has me freaked out a little bit. Like something odd is going to happen today.

This is some twilight zone shit. I am a creature of habit. I log in around the same time everyday and i expect the same posters to make the same kind of posts.

This has thrown me for a loop. Completely thrown off my day now. Thanks BEP. You ruined everything.

Your registration shows you were here one year before me. I have made numerous football posts when I first arrived and some after. In fact, I posted more in the Lounge then. It's just most don't apply to anything about the Bucs. I have made football posts about the FSU Seminoles and the Patriots too. Afterall, my kid was at FSU at the time and I am from New England but live in greater Tampa Bay now. I have even posted in game day threads. You might wanna check the search, because you are off-base as usual.

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Frazod

This never gets old....

I remember that pic.

It was a great game watched with friends who came from other states where they supported the Colts, Steelers and the Fins. It was a blast!
Gruden was considered a hero—at least back then.

I saved all the newspapers from that day.

[Dartgod]

Shanarat. That team had a deal with the Devil.

[wazu]

Originally Posted by Dartgod

Shanarat. That team had a deal with the Devil.

This is the best answer since it is proven that team cheated on the cap.

[Buehler445]

I've said the same shit every time some assbat wants us to hire him away from ESPN. He won a bowl with someone else's players and then a whole hell of a lot of meh. And his boy Chris Simms was terrible until he got almost dead.

Originally Posted by Amnorix

I'm not a huge fan of Dungy or anything, but can you name five better coaches over the last, say, 20 years?

Let's face it, he had continued success with two separate organizations over a pretty long period of time. Sure, you can point to Peyton, but I look forward to the coaches you naming not having a Brees, Brady, Rogers, or whoever as QB.

I think after Belichick, over the last 20 years there are a number of guys who don't really scream out GREAT in any meaningful way. McCarthy and Payton (and perhaps Tomlin), and of course Dungy have the "you haven't done well enough with the great QB you've had", while other guys have either been too inconsistent (Coughlin) or can't seem to do anything in the playoffs (Marv Lewis). I think very highly of the Ravens' Harbaugh, but his trajectory has faltered a bit in the post Lewis/Reed era. I think he'll recover, but we'll see. Ozzie Newsome's drafts lately are also partly responsible for the dropoff there.

I remember the 80s, with Shula, Landry, Parcells, Walsh, Gibbs and a handful of others, and wonder why there don't seem to be many great coaches now. Then again, Shula went to 2 SBs and lost both in the last, like 20 years of his coaching career, despite having Marino. You could look at him and be like "look it's Tony Dungy".

If Dungy was a decent coach or had some semblance of game planning capacity You could point to that. But he's a self proclaimed defensive guy and he's going to let the offense do their thing and he's going to run that ****ing Tampon 2. Where, if he could have gotten the defense out of the bottom 1/3 Manning would have won so many championships it wouldn't be funny. But nope. Score 35 and lose. Constantly. While he's running the ****ing defense. It wasn't until Bob Sanders was actually healthy and doing the work of 3 players they actually made some hay.

Dungy is a ****ing hack.

Granted you'll catch bias here because Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards wouldn't shut the **** up about how he was doing it like they did in Tampa and it was catastrophic. But it doesn't change the fact this this defensive guy couldn't buy a stop to save his ****ing soul.

[Best22]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

If Dungy was a decent coach or had some semblance of game planning capacity You could point to that. But he's a self proclaimed defensive guy and he's going to let the offense do their thing and he's going to run that ****ing Tampon 2. Where, if he could have gotten the defense out of the bottom 1/3 Manning would have won so many championships it wouldn't be funny. But nope. Score 35 and lose. Constantly. While he's running the ****ing defense. It wasn't until Bob Sanders was actually healthy and doing the work of 3 players they actually made some hay.

Dungy is a ****ing hack.

Granted you'll catch bias here because Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards wouldn't shut the **** up about how he was doing it like they did in Tampa and it was catastrophic. But it doesn't change the fact this this defensive guy couldn't buy a stop to save his ****ing soul.

Manning playoff outputs were as follows (not counting low scoring losses pre-Dungy)

2002: L NYJ 0-41

2003: W Den 41-10, W KC 38-31, L Ne 14-24

2004: W Den 49-24, L NE 3-20

2005: L Pit 18-21

2006: W 23-8, 15-6, 38-34, 29-17

2007: L SD 24-28

In season ending losses from 2008-10, the Colts failed to score more than 17 points.

2012 L Bal 35-38 (ST scored 14 for Denver)
2013 W 24-17 W26-16 L 8-43
2014 L Indy 13-24
2015: Carried by a defense

Peyton was good in wins, but often faltered in playoff losses. How often did Peyton led teams fail to score 19 points or more? There's a reason he gained a reputation as a choker. If he played in New England how many of those nail biters would he have pulled out? One? Two? The final scores in Patriot SB wins were as follows

20-17, 32-29, 24-21, 28-24, 34-28. But somehow it's easy to win numerous Superbowls...

[Eureka]

Originally Posted by AssEaterChief

"But in Oakland, he was never the big game coach the team needed, putting together a mediocre 2-2 playoff record."

Kind of unfair considering one of those loses was the ****ing tuck rule game...how do we know they don't beat the Steelers and then the Rams in the SB that year?

Overall he was a good coach....why is it his fault he wanted to go to a better Tampa squad than he had in Oakland?

Sounds smart to me and it's not like he turned them into a dumpster fire.

Gruden didn't want to go to Tampa. He was traded for 2 1st rd and 2 2nd rd picks + 8 million$$$ if I recall correctly. That was a trade Al Davis made that he obviously regretted. John Gruden made both teams great!

[ModSocks]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

Your registration shows you were here one year before me. I have made numerous football posts when I first arrived and some after. In fact, I posted more in the Lounge then. It's just most don't apply to anything about the Bucs. I have made football posts about the FSU Seminoles and the Patriots too. Afterall, my kid was at FSU at the time and I am from New England but live in greater Tampa Bay now. I have even posted in game day threads. You might wanna check the search, because you are off-base as usual.

I said "solid" football post, not "A" football post. I've seen your NFL posts. They're generally shit.

To my surprise, i read something from you this morning that wasn't shit.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

I've said the same shit every time some assbat wants us to hire him away from ESPN. He won a bowl with someone else's players and then a whole hell of a lot of meh. And his boy Chris Simms was terrible until he got almost dead.



If Dungy was a decent coach or had some semblance of game planning capacity You could point to that. But he's a self proclaimed defensive guy and he's going to let the offense do their thing and he's going to run that ****ing Tampon 2. Where, if he could have gotten the defense out of the bottom 1/3 Manning would have won so many championships it wouldn't be funny. But nope. Score 35 and lose. Constantly. While he's running the ****ing defense. It wasn't until Bob Sanders was actually healthy and doing the work of 3 players they actually made some hay.

Dungy is a ****ing hack.

Granted you'll catch bias here because Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards wouldn't shut the **** up about how he was doing it like they did in Tampa and it was catastrophic. But it doesn't change the fact this this defensive guy couldn't buy a stop to save his ****ing soul.

The whole "Colts defenses sucked during Manning's time there" thing is pretty much wrong. The Colts often had at least average if not very good defenses. Many have tried to excuse Peyton's mediocre playoff record by blaming the defense -- both for failures in the playoffs and/or not getting a higher seed -- but close analysis doesn't really support that view too well.

Nobody is pretending Peyton had the Ravens defense, or Seattle's, but to say they sucked isn't right at all.

Just quickly.

2001 -- year before Dungy joins -- Colts are dead LAST in the NFL in points allowed per game -- a mindboggling 30+ points per game

2002 -- Dungy's first year -- Indy jumps to 7th in points allowed per game

2003/04 -- 19th

2005 -- Indy was SECOND in points allowed at 15.8 for the year

2006 -- 18th

2007 -- SECOND again (17.1)

2008 -- Dungy's last season there -- 7th (18.9)

Then:

2009 -- 7th (18.8)

2010 -- big fall to 23rd

2011 -- falls again to a pathetic 28th, but this was the season Manning lost to injury and the Colts won 2 games or whatever.

[Nickhead]

Originally Posted by Dayze

Kubiak, Billick, and Switzer.
Maybe Seifert?

i think seifert was the grand daddy of em all.. post 1985 that is.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Best22

Sean Payton helped build the Saints from homeless laughingstock to a champion. 2009 was not an easy year to win it all. The Favre Vikings were very dangerous, and Peyton Manning Colts began 14-0.

In an era where elite qbs give a team a massive advantage, Payton built his super bowl winner around an elite qb. Outside of that season, he has only made the playoffs 50% of the time. Lots of teams make a surprise run to the super bowl. Outside of that one super bowl run, Payton has been mediocre. A few playoff wins sprinkled in even when the east was a complete joke.

That's the case against him. But if you wanted to add extra mustard, keep in mind that that playoff run technically also comes with an asterisk. And that Minnesota win you referenced is exactly the type of game that earned that type of scrutiny.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

In an era where elite qbs give a team a massive advantage, Payton built his super bowl winner around an elite qb. Outside of that season, he has only made the playoffs 50% of the time. Lots of teams make a surprise run to the super bowl. Outside of that one super bowl run, Payton has been mediocre. A few playoff wins sprinkled in even when the east was a complete joke.

That's the case against him. But if you wanted to add extra mustard, keep in mind that that playoff run technically also comes with an asterisk. And that Minnesota win you referenced is exactly the type of game that earned that type of scrutiny.

Except Payton has no responsibility for roster management, and his GM has saddled him with horrifically bad defenses.

I will say this -- Payton represents a style of head coaching that I generally dislike -- I'm the GM but I'm also the coordinator for one side of the ball and "I have little/no responsibility for the other side, which I will leave entirely in the hands of that coordinator". McCarthy falls into that category also. Not a big fan of that approach.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Except Payton has no responsibility for roster management, and his GM has saddled him with horrifically bad defenses.

I will say this -- Payton represents a style of head coaching that I generally dislike -- I'm the GM but I'm also the coordinator for one side of the ball and "I have little/no responsibility for the other side, which I will leave entirely in the hands of that coordinator". McCarthy falls into that category also. Not a big fan of that approach.

I'm not saying he's a bad coach. But if we're going to ding gruden, I certainly think it's fair to ask why a one and done coach like Payton doesn't belong on the list also.