If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him?

**jAZ** · 02-20-2007, 12:02 AM

I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality".

If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html

Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine
POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007

By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann
CNN

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm.

But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God.

"The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says.

De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader )

"He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers.

"De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones."

Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978?

Prophets 'spoke to me'
De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world.

But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries.

De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict.

De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels.

"The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says.

The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other:

Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus.

De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes.

The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States.

Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex
If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty.

He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers.

And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm?

Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood.

The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth.

"Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross."

And de Jesus says that means him.

So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin.

He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose.

"If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.

L.A. Chieffan · 02-20-2007, 12:03 AM

Isn't that a Monty Python skit?

boogblaster · 02-20-2007, 12:05 AM

Skinny guy, long hair, food in his beard, selling bibles on the street, long white robe that smells like a old cave ....

88TG88 · 02-20-2007, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jAZ

If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned?

**007** · 02-20-2007, 12:09 AM

He is no one. If he were anybody, he could only be the Antichrist. But the Antichrist won't make himself known. He will be thrust into power by the people who think he is the answer to all the worlds problems. Nothing like this though.

C-Mac · 02-20-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guru

He is no one. If he were anybody, he could only be the Antichrist. But the Antichrist won't make himself known. He will be thrust into power by the people who think he is the answer to all the worlds problems. Nothing like this though.

The anti-christ is not just one person, there are many of them.

**Smed1065** · 02-20-2007, 12:12 AM

"If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him?"

Because he would lead the Chiefs to a SB victory!

FAX · 02-20-2007, 12:29 AM

Jesus said that, before the end of days, many would come and claim to be him. But, humans weren't to believe these imposters. Basically, he said that, when he arrives, everyone will know.

I imagine that's because he'll come in with guns a blazin'

FAX

**007** · 02-20-2007, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

Jesus said that, before the end of days, many would come and claim to be him. But, humans weren't to believe these imposters. Basically, he said that, when he arrives, everyone will know.

I imagine that's because he'll come in with guns a blazin'

FAX

Everyone will know because Armageddon will have already happened.

RedThat · 02-20-2007, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

Jesus said that, before the end of days, many would come and claim to be him. But, humans weren't to believe these imposters. Basically, he said that, when he arrives, everyone will know.

I imagine that's because he'll come in with guns a blazin'

FAX

And Mr. Fax, may I please elaborate on your part?

The answer to the topic of this thread is found in Matthew chapter 24:23. And also continues in Matthew chapter 24:29

Here goes:

"Then, if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Messiah! or 'There he is!'-do not believe him. For false Messiahs and false prophets will appear;they will perform great miracles and wonders in order to deceive even God's chosen people, if possible. Listen! I have told you this ahead of time.

"Or, if people should tell you, 'Look, he is out in the desert!'-don't go there;or if they say, 'Look, he is hiding there!'-don't believe it.
For the Son of Man will come like the lightning which flashes across the whole sky from the east to the west.

"Wherever there is a dead body, the vultures will gather.

"Soon after the trouble of those days, the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers in space will be driven fron their courses. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky;and all the peoples of the earth will weep as they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The great trumpet will sound, and he will send out his angels to the four corners of the earth, and they will gather his chosen people from one end of the world to the other.

el borracho · 02-20-2007, 12:52 AM

Ask for two forms of photo id.

Jenson71 · 02-20-2007, 01:08 AM

666 - like this means anything signifcant. Don't worry, no need to look busy when Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda comes around.

Hammock Parties · 02-20-2007, 01:02 AM

its kinda funny, ive been wondering that very same thing for awhile now. How many people say they're jesus these days? a shit ton. Personally its all just smoke and mirrors to get people to be good, and for the most part, its worked.

**007** · 02-20-2007, 01:05 AM

Why do I expect to see Believer on this thread at some point. As a new user name of course.

FAX · 02-20-2007, 01:38 AM

I, for one, look forward with great anticipation to that day, Mr. RedBull.

And, we can only hope that Louis Armstrong will be on the trump.

FAX

02-20-2007, 12:02 AM	Topic Starter
jAZ Supporter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Casino cash: $9847493	If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality". If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned? http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007 By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann CNN MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm. But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God. "The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says. De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader ) "He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers. "De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones." Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978? Prophets 'spoke to me' De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world. But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries. De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict. De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels. "The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says. The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other: Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus. De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes. The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States. Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty. He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers. And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm? Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood. The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth. "Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross." And de Jesus says that means him. So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin. He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose. "If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.
Posts: 24,799

02-20-2007, 12:03 AM	#2
L.A. Chieffan PLAY GOOD FOOTBALL Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: American Gardens Building Casino cash: $4008654	Isn't that a Monty Python skit?
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02-20-2007, 12:05 AM	#3
boogblaster MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Verdigris Valley Campsite Casino cash: $10004900	Skinny guy, long hair, food in his beard, selling bibles on the street, long white robe that smells like a old cave .... __________________ WR or S please
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02-20-2007, 12:09 AM	#5
007 Shaken. Not stirred. Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: London Casino cash: $14050126 VARSITY	He is no one. If he were anybody, he could only be the Antichrist. But the Antichrist won't make himself known. He will be thrust into power by the people who think he is the answer to all the worlds problems. Nothing like this though. __________________ My dear girl, there are some things that just aren’t done. Such as, drinking Dom Perignon ’53 above the temperature of 38 degrees Fahrenheit. That’s just as bad as listening to the Beatles without earmuffs.
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02-20-2007, 12:12 AM	#7
Smed1065 Supporter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Returning From Hell Casino cash: $7873673	"If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him?" Because he would lead the Chiefs to a SB victory!
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02-20-2007, 12:29 AM	#8
FAX testing ... 1, 2, 3 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tennessee Casino cash: $6753759	Jesus said that, before the end of days, many would come and claim to be him. But, humans weren't to believe these imposters. Basically, he said that, when he arrives, everyone will know. I imagine that's because he'll come in with guns a blazin' FAX
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02-20-2007, 12:52 AM	#11
el borracho In Pat We Trust Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Albuquerque, NM Casino cash: $6279148	If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? Ask for two forms of photo id.
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02-20-2007, 01:08 AM	#12
Jenson71 fides quaerens intellectum Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: United States Casino cash: $8330900	666 - like this means anything signifcant. Don't worry, no need to look busy when Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda comes around. Last edited by Jenson71; 02-20-2007 at 01:13 AM..
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02-20-2007, 01:02 AM	#13
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $4610478	its kinda funny, ive been wondering that very same thing for awhile now. How many people say they're jesus these days? a shit ton. Personally its all just smoke and mirrors to get people to be good, and for the most part, its worked. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 278,241

02-20-2007, 01:05 AM	#14
007 Shaken. Not stirred. Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: London Casino cash: $14050126 VARSITY	Why do I expect to see Believer on this thread at some point. As a new user name of course. __________________ My dear girl, there are some things that just aren’t done. Such as, drinking Dom Perignon ’53 above the temperature of 38 degrees Fahrenheit. That’s just as bad as listening to the Beatles without earmuffs.
Posts: 65,555

02-20-2007, 01:38 AM	#15
FAX testing ... 1, 2, 3 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tennessee Casino cash: $6753759	I, for one, look forward with great anticipation to that day, Mr. RedBull. And, we can only hope that Louis Armstrong will be on the trump. FAX
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