Seminoles considering legal action over Mascot Ban

**mlyonsd** · 08-06-2005, 11:26 AM

IMO banning "hostile" and "abusive" mascots only at NCAA tournaments is silly. Either ban them all together or not at all. I fail to see the NCAA's logic on this one.

_____________________________________________________________

School Threatens Lawsuit Over NCAA Mascot Ban

Saturday, August 06, 2005

INDIANAPOLIS — Fed up with what it considers "hostile" and "abusive" American Indian nicknames, the NCAA (search) announced Friday it would shut those words and images out of postseason tournaments, a move that left some school officials angry and threatening legal action.

Starting in February, any school with a nickname or logo considered racially or ethnically "hostile" or "abusive" by the NCAA would be prohibited from using them in postseason events. Mascots will not be allowed to perform at tournament games, and band members and cheerleaders will also be barred from using American Indians on their uniforms beginning in 2008.

Major college football teams are not subject to the ban because there is no official NCAA tournament.

Affected schools were quick to complain, and Florida State (search) — home of the Seminoles — threatened legal action.

"That the NCAA would now label our close bond with the Seminole people as culturally 'hostile and abusive' is both outrageous and insulting," Florida State president T.K. Wetherell (search) said in a statement.

"I intend to pursue all legal avenues to ensure that this unacceptable decision is overturned, and that this university will forever be associated with the 'unconquered' spirit of the Seminole Tribe of Florida (search)," he added.

The committee also recommended that schools follow the examples of Wisconsin and Iowa by refusing to schedule contests against schools that use American Indian nicknames.

While NCAA officials admit they still can't force schools to change nicknames or logos, they are making a statement they believe is long overdue. Eighteen mascots, including Florida State's Seminole and Illinois' Illini (search), were on the list of offenders.

Those schools will not be permitted to host future NCAA tournament games, and if events have already been awarded to those sites, the school must cover any logos or nicknames that appear.

"Certainly some things remain to be answered from today, and one of those things is the definition of what is 'hostile or abusive,'" said Tom Hardy, a spokesman at Illinois.

The NCAA did not give a clear answer on that.

President Myles Brand (search) noted that some schools using the Warrior nickname will not face sanctions because they do not use Indian symbols. One school, North Carolina-Pembroke (search) — which uses the nickname Braves — will also be exempted because Brand said the school has historically had a high percentage of students, more than 20 percent, who are American Indians.

"We believe hostile or abusive nicknames are troubling to us and it can't continue," committee chairman Walter Harrison said. "We're trying to send a message, very strongly, saying that these mascots are not appropriate for NCAA championships."

The decision, however, quickly evoked passions and complaints from both sides.

At Florida State, Wetherell said the NCAA was trying to embarrass the school for using its nickname, even though the Seminole Tribe of Florida has given the university permission to continue using it.

"Other Seminole tribes are not supportive," said Charlotte Westerhaus, the NCAA vice president for diversity and inclusion.

Supporters also were unhappy.

Vernon Bellecourt, president of the National Coalition on Racism in Sports and Media (search) and a member of the Anishinabe-Ojibwe Nation in Minnesota, approved of the ban but had hoped the NCAA would take even stronger action.

"We're not so happy about the fact that they didn't make the decision to ban the use of Indian team names and mascots," he said.

Harrison, president at the University of Hartford, said the executive committee does not have the authority to do that, and schools can still appeal their inclusion on the list.

Brand and Harrison said they hoped school officials would pursue policy changes through the NCAA first, before going to court.

"I suspect that some of those would like to having a ruling on that," Brand said. "But unless there is a change before Feb. 1, they will have to abide by it."

Two years ago, the NCAA recommended schools determine for themselves whether Indian depictions were offensive.

Among the schools to change nicknames in recent years were St. John's (from Redmen to Red Storm) and Marquette (from Warriors to Golden Eagles).

But that hasn't changed opinions on either side.

"They're not willing to give up this money," Bellecourt said, referring to merchandising revenue. "We would hope that it (the decision) was the handwriting on the wall that would urge them to drop these team names and mascots."

In other actions, the executive committee approved:

-Imposing stronger penalties for schools that fall well below the NCAA's new academic scoring system. Harrison said teams would receive a warning letter the first year; restrictions on scholarships, recruiting and playing time the second year; and a postseason ban the third year. If a school fails to meet the standard four consecutive years, all teams at that school would be ineligible for postseason play.

-Rewarding schools that perform consistently well in the classroom with public recognition and additional money. Schools that make significant improvements may also be singled out for recognition.

-Not penalizing schools for athletes who leave when circumstances are deemed beyond the control of the athlete or school. Included among the measure would be the dropping of programs or majors, or the death of a family member. Departures because of coaching changes would not be included. Schools could also salvage one point in the new academic measurement if underclassmen are academically eligible when they are drafted and would receive a bonus point if an underclassmen returned to complete his or her degree.

-A two-year contract extension for Brand. His deal was to run through Dec. 31, 2007 and now includes an indefinite two-year rollover.

-Recommended schools re-examine their policies regarding alcohol sales and advertising.

Chiefs Pantalones · 08-06-2005, 11:42 AM

I don't see what the big deal is.

It's a freakin' mascot, not a real Indian. Even if it was, lighten the freak up.

teedubya · 08-06-2005, 11:50 AM

How about the Florida State Titties?

Or the Florida State Cum Guzzling WHores?

oh, that would be offensive to cum guzzling whores... hrmmm...

Chiefs Pantalones · 08-06-2005, 11:52 AM

I'm pissed off because the guy in the KC Wolf costume is white. That's offensive to my kind. Put a black or a chinese guy in there, that'll make me feel better.

**Rausch** · 08-06-2005, 12:12 PM

The NCAA should really come down hard on Nebraska for insulting and offending the hard working farmers in that state for calling them Cornhuskers...

The idea that being offensive should be illegal is sickening.

Simplex3 · 08-06-2005, 12:17 PM

To this day I can't understand why having a sports mascot named after you is offensive. People pick mascots that are strong, powerful, and command respect. It's a f**king sign of respect for Pete's sake.

Shox · 08-06-2005, 12:36 PM

I wish every NCAA school would have the guts to resign from the NCAA. It will never happen, but this is just ridiculious.

NCAA is way over the top on this one.

**J Diddy** · 08-06-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

The idea that being offensive should be illegal is sickening.

They're coming after you next.

Deberg_1990 · 08-06-2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplex3

To this day I can't understand why having a sports mascot named after you is offensive. People pick mascots that are strong, powerful, and command respect. It's a f**king sign of respect for Pete's sake.

So the "Redskins" is a sign of respect? IMHO, thats the one truly offensive mascot. Whats even worse is, its representing our nations Capital!

**J Diddy** · 08-06-2005, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

So the "Redskins" is a sign of respect? IMHO, thats the one truly offensive mascot. Whats even worse is, its representing our nations Capital!

Next up is PETA calling for the immediate end to usage of all animal names because it makes them feel inferior.

Lions, Bears, Bengals, Eagles, Rams....

They are all facing a picket...

Thig Lyfe · 08-06-2005, 12:59 PM

I think they're missing the real issue. The ban doesn't even cover teams like the "New York State Frugal Jews".

**mlyonsd** · 08-06-2005, 01:00 PM

The silly part of the ruling is to let the schools keep their mascots with the exception of postseason tournaments etc.

The NCAA is acting dubious. They're telling us mascots are only offensive during the playoffs?

I'm really scratching my head on this one.

teedubya · 08-06-2005, 01:01 PM

Redskins is the only offensive indian name as far as I can tell.

**J Diddy** · 08-06-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyonsd

The silly part of the ruling is to let the schools keep their mascots with the exception of postseason tournaments etc.

The NCAA is acting dubious. They're telling us mascots are only offensive during the playoffs?

I'm really scratching my head on this one.

I believe they are trying to force them to change it for fear of missing out on a championship. Which is Bullshit, especially to the athletes who are busting their asses to win one.

Chiefs Pantalones · 08-06-2005, 01:10 PM

Redskins. Who gives a crap? It's just a name, it's not like they are going to peoples houses and beating them up or killing them. How thin-skinned are people?

08-06-2005, 11:26 AM
mlyonsd Supporter Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Spink, SD Casino cash: $1563762	Seminoles considering legal action over Mascot Ban IMO banning "hostile" and "abusive" mascots only at NCAA tournaments is silly. Either ban them all together or not at all. I fail to see the NCAA's logic on this one. _____________________________________________________________ School Threatens Lawsuit Over NCAA Mascot Ban Saturday, August 06, 2005 INDIANAPOLIS — Fed up with what it considers "hostile" and "abusive" American Indian nicknames, the NCAA (search) announced Friday it would shut those words and images out of postseason tournaments, a move that left some school officials angry and threatening legal action. Starting in February, any school with a nickname or logo considered racially or ethnically "hostile" or "abusive" by the NCAA would be prohibited from using them in postseason events. Mascots will not be allowed to perform at tournament games, and band members and cheerleaders will also be barred from using American Indians on their uniforms beginning in 2008. Major college football teams are not subject to the ban because there is no official NCAA tournament. Affected schools were quick to complain, and Florida State (search) — home of the Seminoles — threatened legal action. "That the NCAA would now label our close bond with the Seminole people as culturally 'hostile and abusive' is both outrageous and insulting," Florida State president T.K. Wetherell (search) said in a statement. "I intend to pursue all legal avenues to ensure that this unacceptable decision is overturned, and that this university will forever be associated with the 'unconquered' spirit of the Seminole Tribe of Florida (search)," he added. The committee also recommended that schools follow the examples of Wisconsin and Iowa by refusing to schedule contests against schools that use American Indian nicknames. While NCAA officials admit they still can't force schools to change nicknames or logos, they are making a statement they believe is long overdue. Eighteen mascots, including Florida State's Seminole and Illinois' Illini (search), were on the list of offenders. Those schools will not be permitted to host future NCAA tournament games, and if events have already been awarded to those sites, the school must cover any logos or nicknames that appear. "Certainly some things remain to be answered from today, and one of those things is the definition of what is 'hostile or abusive,'" said Tom Hardy, a spokesman at Illinois. The NCAA did not give a clear answer on that. President Myles Brand (search) noted that some schools using the Warrior nickname will not face sanctions because they do not use Indian symbols. One school, North Carolina-Pembroke (search) — which uses the nickname Braves — will also be exempted because Brand said the school has historically had a high percentage of students, more than 20 percent, who are American Indians. "We believe hostile or abusive nicknames are troubling to us and it can't continue," committee chairman Walter Harrison said. "We're trying to send a message, very strongly, saying that these mascots are not appropriate for NCAA championships." The decision, however, quickly evoked passions and complaints from both sides. At Florida State, Wetherell said the NCAA was trying to embarrass the school for using its nickname, even though the Seminole Tribe of Florida has given the university permission to continue using it. "Other Seminole tribes are not supportive," said Charlotte Westerhaus, the NCAA vice president for diversity and inclusion. Supporters also were unhappy. Vernon Bellecourt, president of the National Coalition on Racism in Sports and Media (search) and a member of the Anishinabe-Ojibwe Nation in Minnesota, approved of the ban but had hoped the NCAA would take even stronger action. "We're not so happy about the fact that they didn't make the decision to ban the use of Indian team names and mascots," he said. Harrison, president at the University of Hartford, said the executive committee does not have the authority to do that, and schools can still appeal their inclusion on the list. Brand and Harrison said they hoped school officials would pursue policy changes through the NCAA first, before going to court. "I suspect that some of those would like to having a ruling on that," Brand said. "But unless there is a change before Feb. 1, they will have to abide by it." Two years ago, the NCAA recommended schools determine for themselves whether Indian depictions were offensive. Among the schools to change nicknames in recent years were St. John's (from Redmen to Red Storm) and Marquette (from Warriors to Golden Eagles). But that hasn't changed opinions on either side. "They're not willing to give up this money," Bellecourt said, referring to merchandising revenue. "We would hope that it (the decision) was the handwriting on the wall that would urge them to drop these team names and mascots." In other actions, the executive committee approved: -Imposing stronger penalties for schools that fall well below the NCAA's new academic scoring system. Harrison said teams would receive a warning letter the first year; restrictions on scholarships, recruiting and playing time the second year; and a postseason ban the third year. If a school fails to meet the standard four consecutive years, all teams at that school would be ineligible for postseason play. -Rewarding schools that perform consistently well in the classroom with public recognition and additional money. Schools that make significant improvements may also be singled out for recognition. -Not penalizing schools for athletes who leave when circumstances are deemed beyond the control of the athlete or school. Included among the measure would be the dropping of programs or majors, or the death of a family member. Departures because of coaching changes would not be included. Schools could also salvage one point in the new academic measurement if underclassmen are academically eligible when they are drafted and would receive a bonus point if an underclassmen returned to complete his or her degree. -A two-year contract extension for Brand. His deal was to run through Dec. 31, 2007 and now includes an indefinite two-year rollover. -Recommended schools re-examine their policies regarding alcohol sales and advertising.
Posts: 38,877

08-06-2005, 11:42 AM	#2
Chiefs Pantalones GO CHIEFS!!!!!! Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $7888717	I don't see what the big deal is. It's a freakin' mascot, not a real Indian. Even if it was, lighten the freak up. __________________ Don't be fooled by my username, I'm white.
Posts: 26,630

08-06-2005, 11:50 AM	#3
teedubya Most Valuable Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Casino cash: $9480002	How about the Florida State Titties? Or the Florida State Cum Guzzling WHores? oh, that would be offensive to cum guzzling whores... hrmmm...
Posts: 36,652

08-06-2005, 11:52 AM	#4
Chiefs Pantalones GO CHIEFS!!!!!! Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $7888717	I'm pissed off because the guy in the KC Wolf costume is white. That's offensive to my kind. Put a black or a chinese guy in there, that'll make me feel better. __________________ Don't be fooled by my username, I'm white.
Posts: 26,630

08-06-2005, 12:17 PM	#6
Simplex3 MVP Join Date: Sep 2003 Casino cash: $10004900	To this day I can't understand why having a sports mascot named after you is offensive. People pick mascots that are strong, powerful, and command respect. It's a f**king sign of respect for Pete's sake.
Posts: 28,527

08-06-2005, 12:36 PM	#7
Shox Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Casino cash: $10005765	I wish every NCAA school would have the guts to resign from the NCAA. It will never happen, but this is just ridiculious. NCAA is way over the top on this one.
Posts: 718

08-06-2005, 12:59 PM	#11
Thig Lyfe Banned Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Thigpen's America Casino cash: $10004900	I think they're missing the real issue. The ban doesn't even cover teams like the "New York State Frugal Jews".
Posts: 25,680

08-06-2005, 01:00 PM	#12
mlyonsd Supporter Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Spink, SD Casino cash: $1563762	The silly part of the ruling is to let the schools keep their mascots with the exception of postseason tournaments etc. The NCAA is acting dubious. They're telling us mascots are only offensive during the playoffs? I'm really scratching my head on this one.
Posts: 38,877

08-06-2005, 01:01 PM	#13
teedubya Most Valuable Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Casino cash: $9480002	Redskins is the only offensive indian name as far as I can tell.
Posts: 36,652

08-06-2005, 01:10 PM	#15
Chiefs Pantalones GO CHIEFS!!!!!! Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $7888717	Redskins. Who gives a crap? It's just a name, it's not like they are going to peoples houses and beating them up or killing them. How thin-skinned are people? __________________ Don't be fooled by my username, I'm white.
Posts: 26,630