If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? - Page 4

**jAZ** · 02-20-2007, 12:02 AM

I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality".

If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html

Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine
POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007

By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann
CNN

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm.

But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God.

"The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says.

De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader )

"He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers.

"De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones."

Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978?

Prophets 'spoke to me'
De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world.

But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries.

De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict.

De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels.

"The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says.

The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other:

Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus.

De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes.

The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States.

Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex
If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty.

He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers.

And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm?

Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood.

The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth.

"Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross."

And de Jesus says that means him.

So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin.

He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose.

"If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.

Ebolapox · 02-20-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

He'd be the guy who looks like Ted Nugent.

sh*t, I'm pretty sure it IS Ted Nugent.

Kerberos · 02-20-2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewie

Weren't you supposed to catch a ride behind a comet a few years back?

I remember those hacks.

This guy was left behind for our amusement!

.

HMc · 02-20-2007, 11:58 PM

as a piece of fiction, the bible was either wonderfully crafted to have every angle covered (i.e. there'll be a whole load of fakes but when he comes you will "know", beautifully ambiguous) or the loopiest piece of fantasy ever written (Moses parting the Red Sea).

**Rain Man** · 02-21-2007, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jAZ

If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him?

When he starts up a megachain of Jesus' Fish & Wine House and has positive earnings surprises on Wall Street every single quarter.

FAX · 02-21-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

When he starts up a megachain of Jesus' Fish & Wine House and has positive earnings surprises on Wall Street every single quarter.

Good thought, Mr. Rain Man.

Personally, I always thought Jesus would make one hell of an optometrist.

FAX

**Rain Man** · 02-21-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

Good thought, Mr. Rain Man.

Personally, I always thought Jesus would make one hell of an optometrist.

FAX

Logo:

"Blindness cured in 60 minutes or you get a free pair of sunglasses."

FAX · 02-21-2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Logo:

"Blindness cured in 60 minutes or you get a free pair of sunglasses."

Lens Jesus.

"We are the way, the truth, and the light frames are 1/2 price."

FAX

FAX · 02-21-2007, 12:29 AM

Lens Jesus.

"Got beam? We can help."

FAX

**Rain Man** · 02-21-2007, 12:49 AM

I think I'd go with LensMessiah.

"Come see the light. Can you see it better with ... 1 ... or with 2? 1...or 2?"

**Rain Man** · 02-21-2007, 12:59 AM

LensMessiah: "Frames Half Off For Lepers"

FAX · 02-21-2007, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I think I'd go with LensMessiah.

"Come see the light. Can you see it better with ... 1 ... or with 2? 1...or 2?"

I think Lens Jesus is better, Mr. Rain Man. Are you sure you aren't changing it just to make trouble?

Lens Jesus

"When You Seek And Can't Find."

FAX

**Rain Man** · 02-21-2007, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

I think Lens Jesus is better, Mr. Rain Man. Are you sure you aren't changing it just to make trouble?

Lens Jesus

"When You Seek And Can't Find."

FAX

Trouble is my middle name. It's just badly misspelled on my birth certificate.

Lens Jesus: Buy two pairs, get eternal salvation free.

FAX · 02-21-2007, 01:06 AM

Lens Jesus

"Where Your Vision Is Us."

FAX

RJ · 02-21-2007, 01:12 AM

The Omni-Tometrist.

Our motto.....

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Free exams, 12 months no payment, no interest, OAC.

FAX · 02-21-2007, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ

The Omni-Tometrist.

Our motto.....

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Free exams, 12 months no payment, no interest, OAC.

With all respect, Mr. RJ, I'm not sure an optometrist slogan suggesting the plucking out of offending eyes is going to bring in much business.

FAX

02-20-2007, 12:02 AM
jAZ Supporter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Casino cash: $9847493	If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality". If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned? http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007 By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann CNN MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm. But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God. "The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says. De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader ) "He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers. "De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones." Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978? Prophets 'spoke to me' De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world. But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries. De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict. De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels. "The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says. The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other: Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus. De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes. The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States. Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty. He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers. And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm? Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood. The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth. "Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross." And de Jesus says that means him. So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin. He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose. "If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.
Posts: 24,799

02-20-2007, 11:58 PM	#48
HMc from the very deep south. Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia. Casino cash: $9944900	as a piece of fiction, the bible was either wonderfully crafted to have every angle covered (i.e. there'll be a whole load of fakes but when he comes you will "know", beautifully ambiguous) or the loopiest piece of fantasy ever written (Moses parting the Red Sea).
Posts: 2,792

02-21-2007, 12:29 AM	#53
FAX testing ... 1, 2, 3 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tennessee Casino cash: $6753759	Lens Jesus. "Got beam? We can help." FAX
Posts: 44,492

02-21-2007, 12:49 AM	#54
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3338491 VARSITY	I think I'd go with LensMessiah. "Come see the light. Can you see it better with ... 1 ... or with 2? 1...or 2?" __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit.
Posts: 141,340

02-21-2007, 12:59 AM	#55
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3338491 VARSITY	LensMessiah: "Frames Half Off For Lepers" __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit.
Posts: 141,340

02-21-2007, 01:06 AM	#58
FAX testing ... 1, 2, 3 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tennessee Casino cash: $6753759	Lens Jesus "Where Your Vision Is Us." FAX
Posts: 44,492

02-21-2007, 01:12 AM	#59
RJ Supporter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: In a shotgun shack Casino cash: $9965202	The Omni-Tometrist. Our motto..... "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Free exams, 12 months no payment, no interest, OAC.
Posts: 14,931