These "parents" should face criminal charges - Page 14

**DaneMcCloud** · 03-27-2008, 07:12 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

Hydrae · 03-28-2008, 02:18 PM

So, for all the Christians out there, how strong is your faith? Do you believe God could have cured this little girl if it was in his plan? Do you think if he wanted her to live to adulthood he could have given her to different parents? At what point did God lose control of this situation which led to her death?

Matthew 10:

29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[d]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

So God knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it from happening. In my book that would mean that this was part of God's will.

How about Matthew 17:

20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Have you ever seen a mustard seed? Pretty darned small but if you have that little bit of faith you can literally move mountains. My guess would be that you could cure a disease or two as well.

So I guess what I am saying is that to me, those of you who claim christianity but think these people are crazy are hypocritical. Do you also believe that "God helps those who help themselves?" Because I sure never learned that in Sunday School. I think people should actually praise these folks who have such an abiding believe in their god that they would allow this to happen. In their world, this was all part of God's plan even if we don't understand it.

a1na2 · 03-28-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Third Eye

And there it is, isn't it? Kinda like when some whackjob asserts their values on their underage daughter.

Apples and oranges dude.

a1na2 · 03-28-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenson71

She didn't have to think it was diabetes. She just had to know there was something wrong. She obviously did because she prayed to God instead of using her damn brain and getting her to the doctor.

Having excessive thirst and hunger for weeks is not "feeling crappy." Throwing up for weeks is not "feeling crappy." YOUR ****ING SENSE TELLS YOU SOMETHING IS WRONG AND IF YOU DON'T DO SOMETHING ABOU IT, THAT IS NEGLECT.

That is purely your opinion based on what you feel and has no bearing on the Neuman family. Sorry dude.

Brock · 03-28-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrae

So I guess what I am saying is that to me, those of you who claim christianity but think these people are crazy are hypocritical. Do you also believe that "God helps those who help themselves?" Because I sure never learned that in Sunday School. I think people should actually praise these folks who have such an abiding believe in their god that they would allow this to happen. In their world, this was all part of God's plan even if we don't understand it.

God gave them brains enough to be aware that doctors can easily cure what ailed their daughter.

Some people think God tells them to lock their children in a cage in the basement without food or water. Bless them too?

a1na2 · 03-28-2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrae

So, for all the Christians out there, how strong is your faith? Do you believe God could have cured this little girl if it was in his plan? Do you think if he wanted her to live to adulthood he could have given her to different parents? At what point did God lose control of this situation which led to her death?

Matthew 10:

29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[d]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

So God knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it from happening. In my book that would mean that this was part of God's will.

How about Matthew 17:

20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Have you ever seen a mustard seed? Pretty darned small but if you have that little bit of faith you can literally move mountains. My guess would be that you could cure a disease or two as well.

So I guess what I am saying is that to me, those of you who claim christianity but think these people are crazy are hypocritical. Do you also believe that "God helps those who help themselves?" Because I sure never learned that in Sunday School. I think people should actually praise these folks who have such an abiding believe in their god that they would allow this to happen. In their world, this was all part of God's plan even if we don't understand it.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Jesus said: "these things that I do, you shall do and greater."

So, can God heal through people? Yes. Does he have to heal through preachers? No.

What is it that fulfills the healing? Faith? Yes.

Some will understand and most here, it seems, cannot fathom what you said.

Sure-Oz · 03-28-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

God gave them brains enough to be aware that doctors can easily cure what ailed their daughter.

Some people think God tells them to lock their children in a cage in the basement without food or water. Bless them too?

No shit...

BucEyedPea · 03-28-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenson71

It absolutely is. These parents lack of common sense is why they have to bury their daughter. How can you defend this nonsense?

How? Because you want to substitute what you think is sensible for what is a spiritual belief which a religious person considers sensible for spiritual salvation. Some religions feel the soul is more important even just to enter heaven. In fact, at one time the RCC, allowed the mother to die in a difficult birth in order to save the child because a soul was being saved. It's weird to us in a secular society but that is a religious belief. But they are both opinions. One is secular one is religious.

And where do we draw the line?

There's now forced vaccinations when there's been congressional hearings that they have bad side effects. We have parents being threatened with abuse if they don't put their child on Ritalin. If children are not the property of parents, then why does the state consider them their property? They're not anybody's property but the parent has traditionally been the caretaker of developing the child including in values and religion.

Don't get me wrong, I can argue this one both ways because it's a tough one.
I thought, however, that 3/4's of the states had exemptions for healing with prayer.

BucEyedPea · 03-28-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

Lets save "what constitutes an organized religion" for another time. Its really not an issue in this case IMO.

Of course it's an issue, it touches on what is a religion—something the state also has no right to define. It's a matter of conscience.

Hydrae · 03-28-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

God gave them brains enough to be aware that doctors can easily cure what ailed their daughter.

Some people think God tells them to lock their children in a cage in the basement without food or water. Bless them too?

Do they have a way to back that up from the Bible? No, there are crazy people who think God talks to them directly. Acting on those impulses are not in the same neighborhood as having a deep abiding faith that God will look out for those who profess their belief in him.

My father stops whatever he is doing whenever he hears a siren and prays that God watch over those involved. He does this because he sincerely believes God will listen and answer that prayer. Sometimes those people still die or whatever but he sees those as being part of God's will. We can't understand why God allows the things he does but that does not make them wrong, just beyond our feeble understanding.

BucEyedPea · 03-28-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenverChief

and there is your answer why there are rarely criminal cases

Guess I don't see it. If there aren't criminal suits, unless a Kevorkian-type scene, then there's nothing to protect. They protect themselves in the civil suits by covering for one another.

Pitt Gorilla · 03-28-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

I'm not sure where you got that, but what I'm saying is that we AS AMERICANS, have some undeniable rights and one of those rights is to practice our religion as we see fit. This has nothing to do with the religion part of the equation but the freedoms that we enjoy as Americans.

That isn't true. If your religion tells you to molest your kids, it will still be against the law. Similarly, even if your religion requires you to sacrifice one of your family members, you'll probably still go to jail. I'm not sure you've thought this through.

Sure-Oz · 03-28-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla

That isn't true. If your religion tells you to molest your kids, it will still be against the law. Similarly, even if your religion requires you to sacrifice one of your family members, you'll probably still go to jail. I'm not sure you've thought this through.

But but common sense wasn't part of those people's religions....

Brock · 03-28-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrae

My father stops whatever he is doing whenever he hears a siren and prays that God watch over those involved. He does this because he sincerely believes God will listen and answer that prayer. .

That is fine as long as he doesn't stop in the middle of the freeway to do it. It isn't God's will that you cause a 50 car pileup on 435.

Hydrae · 03-28-2008, 02:48 PM

I do want to be clear, this is not something I would allow to happen to my children and I do not even agree with their stance. However I also do not think that they should be prosecuted for their belief system which is what the OP was advocating.

a1na2 · 03-28-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla

That isn't true. If your religion tells you to molest your kids, it will still be against the law. Similarly, even if your religion requires you to sacrifice one of your family members, you'll probably still go to jail. I'm not sure you've thought this through.

If your religion tells you that you are not practicing a religion but a cult.

My religion does not say that in the slightest. You are twisting words just to be a pain in the ass. All you have to do to be that pain is to post on any thread on this board.

I suspect that you don't subscribe to any religion, mainstream or other because the Bible tells us that we have to obey the laws of the land. "Give unto Caesar what is Caesars".

That tells me that I have to obey the laws of the land that I reside in, but I still have the freedom to exercise my religion as I see fit.

This thread is more about trying to put criminal charges against a family that broke no written law regarding their child. I'm guessing that you have totally overlooked the premise of the thread.

Care to try again?

03-27-2008, 07:12 PM
DaneMcCloud Supporter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hollywood, CA Casino cash: $10053648	These "parents" should face criminal charges http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor. An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said. She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney. The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors. She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently. "We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering." Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said. The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body. Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl. "My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith." The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent. "Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now." The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital. But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead. She is survived by her parents and three older siblings. "We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time." The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway. Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
Posts: 88,960

03-28-2008, 02:18 PM	#196
Hydrae Sandbox: Leander Lasercats Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Austin, Tx Casino cash: $2317000	So, for all the Christians out there, how strong is your faith? Do you believe God could have cured this little girl if it was in his plan? Do you think if he wanted her to live to adulthood he could have given her to different parents? At what point did God lose control of this situation which led to her death? Matthew 10: 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[d]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. So God knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it from happening. In my book that would mean that this was part of God's will. How about Matthew 17: 20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Have you ever seen a mustard seed? Pretty darned small but if you have that little bit of faith you can literally move mountains. My guess would be that you could cure a disease or two as well. So I guess what I am saying is that to me, those of you who claim christianity but think these people are crazy are hypocritical. Do you also believe that "God helps those who help themselves?" Because I sure never learned that in Sunday School. I think people should actually praise these folks who have such an abiding believe in their god that they would allow this to happen. In their world, this was all part of God's plan even if we don't understand it.
Posts: 14,686

03-28-2008, 02:48 PM	#209
Hydrae Sandbox: Leander Lasercats Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Austin, Tx Casino cash: $2317000	I do want to be clear, this is not something I would allow to happen to my children and I do not even agree with their stance. However I also do not think that they should be prosecuted for their belief system which is what the OP was advocating.
Posts: 14,686