Any fishkeepers here? Saltwater or freshwater

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

I've only known about plants reducing Nitrates, not Ammonia. In fact, that's the main reason why I went w/ a planted tank. Thanks to someone at the pet store telling me that I only needed to do a water change once a month, my Nitrates reached a whopping 160ppm! How my fishes didn't croak is beyond me!

But since then, I have been maintaining a strict 50% water change once a week and my Nitrates stay around 40ppm. The plants have helped quite a bit in maintaining the level, but IME, they are not lowering the Nitrate level like I had hoped. In short, I wouldn't put too much faith in live plants helping w/ your cycle.

I've got so many plants I only do a water change every 6 weeks or so and my nitrates rarely get over 25 ppm.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Silock

And are you sure about plants not absorbing ammonia? Everything I've read says they can absorb both ammonia and nitrates.

http://thegab.org/Plants/setting-up-...nted-tank.html

http://www.rexgrigg.com/cycle.htm

I'm not sure how plants could absorb ammonia.

Everything I've ever known about marine plants anyway is that they only work with Nitrates. Things like chaeto algae, calupra and mangrove plants all serve to knock your nitrates down but they don't do anything for ammonia.

Nitrates aren't really that big a worry though, especially not for fish. Nitrate levels can get insanely high without having an impact on your fish, especially if you keep everything else within acceptable limits.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'm not sure how plants could absorb ammonia.

Technically, they use ammonium (NH4+) more readily, but ammonia (NH3) has no charge, so it passes through plant cells easily, where it bonds with free H+ to become easily digested NH4+.

But I'm only going to be putting 1-2 fish in there to begin with, and cheap ones at that, so if this experiment doesn't work, then no biggie.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Everything I've ever known about marine plants anyway is that they only work with Nitrates. Things like chaeto algae, calupra and mangrove plants all serve to knock your nitrates down but they don't do anything for ammonia.

It's the same with FW plants as far as I know. I don't ever have any free NH3 so I don't know...

[cabletech94]

Need to let your water cycle for at least a week before you put fish in. Or your fish WILL DIE. (duh)

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by cabletech94

Need to let your water cycle for at least a week before you put fish in. Or your fish WILL DIE. (duh)

Actually the cycle won't START without ammonia (fish waste), so you need fish to even start the cycle.

For FW, I use mollies because they're very resilient. They'll usually live through the cycling process.

The cycling process often takes MUCH longer than a week. If you don't want the hassle of using a drip reagent test for Ammonia, get the 5-in-1 test strips to test for nitrite and nitrate.

At first, both values will be zero. Over a few days, the bacteria will begin to begin to convert ammonia to nitrite and you will start to see the nitrite pad change color. Eventually, a 2nd strain of the same bacteria will begin to convert nitrite to nitrate.

When the cycle is complete, nitrite should drop to zero and from then on you should only see nitrate on the test.

[The Bunk]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Actually the cycle won't START without ammonia (fish waste), so you need fish to even start the cycle.

For FW, I use mollies because they're very resilient. They'll usually live through the cycling process.

The cycling process often takes MUCH longer than a week. If you don't want the hassle of using a drip reagent test for Ammonia, get the 5-in-1 test strips to test for nitrite and nitrate.

At first, both values will be zero. Over a few days, the bacteria will begin to begin to convert ammonia to nitrite and you will start to see the nitrite pad change color. Eventually, a 2nd strain of the same bacteria will begin to convert nitrite to nitrate.

When the cycle is complete, nitrite should drop to zero and from then on you should only see nitrate on the test.

I kick off my cycle with a raw, uncooked shrimp from the grocery store. You'll see an ammonia spike in 7-10 days. Cycle usually takes 3-4 weeks to complete in my experience. I wouldn't risk putting in a fish right away. I've never actually done it that way, but can't imagine that it wouldn't be extremely stressful on the fish.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by The Bunk

I kick off my cycle with a raw, uncooked shrimp from the grocery store. You'll see an ammonia spike in 7-10 days. Cycle usually takes 3-4 weeks to complete in my experience. I wouldn't risk putting in a fish right away. I've never actually done it that way, but can't imagine that it wouldn't be extremely stressful on the fish.

Raw shrimp is a good way to introduce Saprolegnia unfortunately.

I've cycled with mollies and they get through it pretty well. Yes, it's stressful but it's really the only SURE way to cycle a tank and not end up with problems later.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Actually the cycle won't START without ammonia (fish waste), so you need fish to even start the cycle.

Lots of sites recommend using straight ammonia and just letting the tank fishless cycle itself.

[The Bunk]

I made my frist major mistake in reef tanks a few weeks ago, and became the poster boy for QT tanks. I bought a fish that had ich (unbeknownst to me) and put him directly in my tank. Within two weeks all but two fish in my tank were dead. I'm fighting an uphill battle to save the last two I'm afraid. I won't be buying another fish until I get my QT tank setup.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by The Bunk

I made my frist major mistake in reef tanks a few weeks ago, and became the poster boy for QT tanks. I bought a fish that had ich (unbeknownst to me) and put him directly in my tank. Within two weeks all but two fish in my tank were dead. I'm fighting an uphill battle to save the last two I'm afraid. I won't be buying another fish until I get my QT tank setup.

What kind of tank do you have? If you don't have quarantine available, Kordon Herbal Ich Attack is a very good product. No copper (actually contains Napthoquinones) and safe for all invertebrates. It's worked will for me in the rare case a new fish brings in Ich.

[The Bunk]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

What kind of tank do you have? If you don't have quarantine available, Kordon Herbal Ich Attack is a very good product. No copper (actually contains Napthoquinones) and safe for all invertebrates. It's worked will for me in the rare case a new fish brings in Ich.

Salt, 120 DT, 140 gallon sump.

Never heard of that before, but I'll look into it. I bought a garlic based product from marinedepot, who's name escapes me at the moment. I tried my first dose of it last night, so we'll see if it actually does any good.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by The Bunk

Salt, 120 DT, 140 gallon sump.

Never heard of that before, but I'll look into it. I bought a garlic based product from marinedepot, who's name escapes me at the moment. I tried my first dose of it last night, so we'll see if it actually does any good.

Garlic is a good curative and appetite enhancer but it won't kill Ich. That being said, the Naptho smells like onions or garlic, so you might be on to something.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by The Bunk

I made my frist major mistake in reef tanks a few weeks ago, and became the poster boy for QT tanks. I bought a fish that had ich (unbeknownst to me) and put him directly in my tank. Within two weeks all but two fish in my tank were dead. I'm fighting an uphill battle to save the last two I'm afraid. I won't be buying another fish until I get my QT tank setup.

I've never run a QT tank, though I probably should.

The problem is that marine ich is something of an ornery little shit. Wild-caught fish all have it and virtually any distributor is going to run a mass filtration system that will pass it around as well. Freshwater ich is a different creature entirely; it's much more rare. Marine, on the other hand, is virtually everywhere and extremely difficult to ever completely eradicate, especially once it is introduced to your system.

There are 2 theories here w/ marine ich - the first is that leaving your tank fallow for about 3 months will essentially starve the ich out. What you see when you see ich is actually the little cysts that form as it 'hatches'. What emerges falls into your substrate, rocks, etc... and then attaches to the fish. Rinse/repeat, so long as there are fish in the tank. By going fallow (without fish; inverts like corals and a cleanup crew would still be fine), you leave them nothing to attach to. You have to stay fallow for a long time to ensure that you don't have any stragglers that have stayed dormant for the whole period.

I tried going fallow; ran the tank empty for 6 weeks and the first two fish in introduced were baby clowns that were bred by a local breeder. Within a week, they showed spots. I gave up. Oh, and all of the fish I removed from the tank to go fallow with it died in quarantine due to the stress of the small tank.

A QT tank has to be barren to avoid the ich having anywhere to breed. Further, you want it to induce a little stress in order to start that ich lifecycle in your QT in order to fully eradicate them. That said; I still don't trust it unless you're willing to do a 6-week QT, and even then, the malachite green and copper and formaline and all that stuff can start to have a negative impact on fish as well. Hypo-salinity (really low salt levels) is the safest option, but it's actually quite difficult to do well and can also be hard on the fish.

Oh...and I'm sure (I hope) that you know that virtually any treatment for ich cannot go into your reef. All of that stuff will kill your inverts, generally including your corals. It will get into your live-rock and never really cycle out. Worse still, it will get into your seals and run the risk of making that tank 'radioactive' in the future.

Theory 2: Nutrition and stability. Most folks now believe that if you go about 6 months without introducing 'new' ich to the system, it will essentially inbreed itself out of useful existence in your tank. I've only gone a prolonged period of time without adding anything once, and there seemed to be some merit to that as nothing showed spots ever, regardless of stress. Others will suggest that fish can develop something of an underlying immunity to it if they've had it; I don't buy that one. I simply believe they get more comfortable in their surroundings and they fight it off without it becoming visible.

What I do to address ich is simply feed a lot, feed quality food and dip it in garlic and Selcon. Additionally, try to increase your water movement to ease the strain on their gills as Ich will first attack their respiratory system (it's why you see really sick fish hang out up high and around the returns). By moving the water more, you introduce more oxygen to it and its easier for them to breathe even if their gills aren't at 100%. I've heard of people doing really well by adding a live-well aerator to get more oxygen in the water.

The Selcon is actually far more important than the garlic. As has been noted, garlic just increases appetite. The useful enzyme in garlic for health purposes has long since broken down by the time it gets to your house, let alone your tank. The Selcon, however, adds a lot of acids and fats that are very healthy for your fish (if you have tangs, get it to prevent lateral line erosion).

Water changes are also a big deal. People forget that the salt is more than just salt; it has a bunch of minerals and stuff in it that are pretty helpful for having healthy fish.

By keeping the fish healthy, fed and happy, you can fight them through that 'cyst' period. The cysts will hatch and fall into the substrate and your fish will look better briefly. They will be healthy and less stressed due to the feeding and water changes and they'll be able fight off secondary infections and have an immune system that can fight off the ich when it re-emerges and tries to attach again.

It's simply a matter of fighting through it, IMO. Keep 'em healthy and fed and you'll find that most marine fish are adapted to fight off ich. Some are pretty lousy about it (my hippo seems to always have it but that thing eats like a pig so it pulls through easily), some never get it (haven't seen a spot on those baby clowns in 18 months now; I think adding the anemone has them pretty relaxed so they never show it).

But there's really no reason for ich to be a tank-killer and more often than not, the 'cure' is worse than the disease. Try to set up the QT if you want, but I've never had the patience for them. More than anything, I think they're great for getting fish to start eating before introduction into a display, but they're of limited utility when it comes to actually keeping ich out. (Marine velvet and other more nasty boogeymen, on the other hand, it will keep out).

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I've never run a QT tank, though I probably should.

Same here.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

The problem is that marine ich is something of an ornery little shit. Wild-caught fish all have it and virtually any distributor is going to run a mass filtration system that will pass it around as well. Freshwater ich is a different creature entirely; it's much more rare.

Actually FW ich isn't all that rare. It's just easier to control. I don't know about marine ich, but with FW ich, if you see it on the outside of your fish, you've already lost an important battle. Ich establishes in the gills so your fish will be very sick before you ever see the actual spots. Fish hovering at the surface, appearing to "gasp" for air, is a sign of ich.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Oh...and I'm sure (I hope) that you know that virtually any treatment for ich cannot go into your reef. All of that stuff will kill your inverts, generally including your corals. It will get into your live-rock and never really cycle out. Worse still, it will get into your seals and run the risk of making that tank 'radioactive' in the future.

It's because most of them contain Copper, which is highly toxic in even moderate concentrations. It's very, very difficult to get rid of but it's not impossible. In a marine tank with lots of inverts and corals though, it can absolutely create a situation where the tank is toxic forever. I really suggest trying Kordon's Herbal Ich Attack. Great product with no copper.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Water changes are also a big deal. People forget that the salt is more than just salt; it has a bunch of minerals and stuff in it that are pretty helpful for having healthy fish.

This is absolutely true for FW tanks as well. Even low pH Amazon-style tanks need proper mineralization.