Question for the Bible scholars...

[mlyonsd]

St. Anthony.

Patron Saint of Lost Objects.

My wife prays to St. Anthony whenever something is lost. It could be something I lost, or anyone she knows lost. I can't recall this ever failing btw.

Anyway, we got into a discussion tonight about what to do if he holds out on you. My wife has never had to stoop to this level, but she says it is a ritual to take a picture (St. Anthony is usually holding the baby Jesus) and cutting them apart with scissors, keeping them separate until the object is found.

I don't care if you mock the claim, I just want to know if anyone has ever heard of separating St. Anthony from the baby Jesus as a ritual.

(Payoff for our bet is in the bedroom, Lord help me if this is blasphemy)

[Jilly]

Originally Posted by Saulbadguy

That's where I disagree. I don't believe it is a religious fundamentalist honest intention to keep someone out of hell.

I think in their distorted worldview, that's what they would say. Although I'm interested in what your take is?

[Jilly]

sorry, mylonsd.....forgive me? Or should we ask one of the saints to interceded? Because my suggestion would be St. Christopher....I like travelling.

[Iowanian]

St Hubert, the Patron Saint of Archers, Hunters and other designation's symbol is located on the Jaegermeister bottle.


Hubert's representation is a stag bearing a cross or crucifix between its antlers: Hence the Master Hunter's (or Jagermeister's) Badge of Honor.

Jagermeister Bottle.In fact the bottle cap on an imported bottle of Jagermeister herbal liqueur is a duplication of the Master Hunter's badge. The bottle's label also has the same representation of a stag with a shining cross, suspended between the antlers, as the brand's logo. Surrounding the label is a German phrase, which loosely translated means: "This is the hunter's badge of honor, which he protects and wears as his shield, to guard, while in the fine and honorable profession of hunting; which also honors the Creator and his creations."

Literally translated, Jagermeister means Master Hunter in the German language. The term is applied to those who have rightfully earned the respect of their peers and regular citizens as well. German heritage requires much more of hunters than simply passing an eight-hour safety course before being issued a license. In that country it is a privilege to go afield with a firearm and the sport requires many seasons of apprenticeship.

[Iowanian]

Mylons

you should pull out your St Hubert Pokemon, because he was also the Saint of Fur trappers, and you're seeking help in scalping a beaver.


Glad to have been of help.

[irishjayhawk]

I have never heard of this ritual before, either.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Originally Posted by FAX

Not necessarily, Mr. sedated.

I mean, if a peep cured peeps of horrific diseases (I mean really cured them) all over the place, was executed, came back to life again, then floated up into the sky on national tv, peeps would be pretty enthusiastic for that peep. There would be skeptics, sure. Just like there always are ... but it wouldn't be like Scientology.

FAX

Of course, 300 years from now, Scientology can write that some guy from their club did all of these things as well, as long as there are no videos etc. to demonstrate otherwise.

[FAX]

Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla

Of course, 300 years from now, Scientology can write that some guy from their club did all of these things as well, as long as there are no videos etc. to demonstrate otherwise.

There's a lot of documented information available on Hubbard. His history is well known, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

I agree that a myth can be constructed over time and that some peeps will believe almost anything. When you combine those two factors, a cult can be born out of nothing. All that's true.

Still, if you were to take the Jesus story and move it forward to the electronic age, it would be something far removed from Scientology. Bringing yourself back to life after being proven dead is a big deal, after all. All a peep would have to do is demonstrate that A) He really, really was dead and B) He really, really came back to life and, voila!!, you have yourself a religion.

FAX

[Pitt Gorilla]

Originally Posted by FAX

There's a lot of documented information available on Hubbard. His history is well known, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

I agree that a myth can be constructed over time and that some peeps will believe almost anything. When you combine those two factors, a cult can be born out of nothing. All that's true.

Still, if you were to take the Jesus story and move it forward to the electronic age, it would be something far removed from Scientology. Bringing yourself back to life after being proven dead is a big deal, after all. All a peep would have to do is demonstrate that A) He really, really was dead and B) He really, really came back to life and, voila!!, you have yourself a religion.

FAX

If there were no cameras etc. to document the coming back to life part, how many people would have to witness the again living guy for people to believe it? I mean, if 30 people witnessed (or claimed to witness) the event, would people believe them?

[FAX]

Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla

If there were no cameras etc. to document the coming back to life part, how many people would have to witness the again living guy for people to believe it? I mean, if 30 people witnessed (or claimed to witness) the event, would people believe them?

Exactly my point, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

Back in the days of Jesus, history was preserved primarily through oral communication. Of course, the Jews of that time were extremely skilled at oral traditions (for obvious reasons) because it's all they really had easy access to ... later, of course, many of the stories were committed to writing. Still, to many modern peeps, the Jesus story warrants skepticism because there's no "proof" that any of it really happened as the Bible and other secular sources indicate.

Today, it would be a totally different deal. Modern medicine could and would prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that the peep was dead. If he were declared dead in a modern hospital, you can pretty much count on that being correct. As for the resurrection part, that could also be easily proven today through DNA.

So, it would be a matter of demonstrating A) death and B) life. In that order. Same guy? Yep. Was dead? Yep. Not dead now? Nope. Party over.

All I'm saying is that such a series of events would eclipse Scientology in terms of believability. There would still be skeptics (as there always are), but they would be challenged, to be sure.

FAX

[Dave Lane]

Originally Posted by Saulbadguy

I don't think it's worse. It's the same, IMO.

I do have to say I see more religion crap thrown in my face daily than I do anti-religion, so perhaps his frustration is based on that.

Thank you for seeing it. Also I do find it so hard to believe in the 21st century things like this can be believed, without any proof whatsoever, I almost feel obligated to throw another perspective in the mix. Its so rare that anyone speaks out directly against religion that I hope, perhaps vainly, that someone might at least think about their beliefs rather than blindly accepting them as "gospel"

Dave

[Dave Lane]

Originally Posted by FAX

Exactly my point, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

Back in the days of Jesus, history was preserved primarily through oral communication. Of course, the Jews of that time were extremely skilled at oral traditions (for obvious reasons) because it's all they really had easy access to ... later, of course, many of the stories were committed to writing. Still, to many modern peeps, the Jesus story warrants skepticism because there's no "proof" that any of it really happened as the Bible and other secular sources indicate.

Today, it would be a totally different deal. Modern medicine could and would prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that the peep was dead. If he were declared dead in a modern hospital, you can pretty much count on that being correct. As for the resurrection part, that could also be easily proven today through DNA.

So, it would be a matter of demonstrating A) death and B) life. In that order. Same guy? Yep. Was dead? Yep. Not dead now? Nope. Party over.

All I'm saying is that such a series of events would eclipse Scientology in terms of believability. There would still be skeptics (as there always are), but they would be challenged, to be sure.

FAX

Hell I might be convert #1 if that happened! I'd love for the stories to be true. Sadly they are not.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Originally Posted by FAX

Exactly my point, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

Back in the days of Jesus, history was preserved primarily through oral communication. Of course, the Jews of that time were extremely skilled at oral traditions (for obvious reasons) because it's all they really had easy access to ... later, of course, many of the stories were committed to writing. Still, to many modern peeps, the Jesus story warrants skepticism because there's no "proof" that any of it really happened as the Bible and other secular sources indicate.

Today, it would be a totally different deal. Modern medicine could and would prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that the peep was dead. If he were declared dead in a modern hospital, you can pretty much count on that being correct. As for the resurrection part, that could also be easily proven today through DNA.

So, it would be a matter of demonstrating A) death and B) life. In that order. Same guy? Yep. Was dead? Yep. Not dead now? Nope. Party over.

All I'm saying is that such a series of events would eclipse Scientology in terms of believability. There would still be skeptics (as there always are), but they would be challenged, to be sure.

FAX

As previously noted, if none of the 30 people were able to document the event in any way (other than witnessing it and speaking/writing about it; no DNA folks in the group) prior to the guy immediately leaving our planet, would folks believe these 30 people?

[FAX]

You know, I have similar conversations with friends, Mr. Dave Lane. The thing that interests me most is when the atheist starts heaving the "blind acceptance without proof" ball over the plate. The fact is that a lot of spiritually-minded peeps are truth seekers and unafraid of being "proven" wrong just as non-believers want to be "proven" right. After all, in the end, it's all about truth.

I am very interested in science, for example, and follow the work being done in particle physics and quantum theory fairly closely (for a layperson). A lot of professionals in that field are taking a ton of stuff on faith right now simply because their theories cannot be proven in the lab. Yet, many of those theories are, for the most part, accepted as "science". It's interesting to me that many atheists find it easy to accept those theories while rejecting spiritual ones.

I have a feeling that, over time, we'll find that spirituality and science will eventually blend together and many of the core tenets of both "religion" and science will find common ground. I hope that I live long enough to see that happen.

FAX

[FAX]

Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla

As previously noted, if none of the 30 people were able to document the event in any way (other than witnessing it and speaking/writing about it; no DNA folks in the group) prior to the guy immediately leaving our planet, would folks believe these 30 people?

I apologize, Mr. Pitt Gorilla, but I don't think I understand the question.

If you're saying that, if human witness were the only evidence, would most peeps believe that a particular, unusual, and assumably miraculous event occurred? If that's the question, I'd say probably not. It works both ways, though.

If 30 modern peeps told the Jews of Jesus' time that we just launched a rocket to the moon, do you think they would believe it?

FAX

[Dave Lane]

Sir Fax I understand what you are saying and while I wait for most of the new theories to be tested I do find them interesting and really neither confirm or deny that they maybe real till some testing does validate or invalidate them. In the mean time I find them interesting much in the way that I find religion to be the most interesting phenomenon there is in the world.

The history and chronology of the religions is so fascinating to me I love it. Its the slow creep of legend and lore into a bonafide religion that amazes me. Its the greatest sales job ever. No product, no proof, nothing tangible in any way and it rakes in billions a year. Truly amazing.