Gunther has been more of a liability than an asset to the organization

[shaneo69]

Like many of you, I was doing cartwheels last winter when Gunther was re-hired as DC. Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998.

After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary, and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract. Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas.

Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles.

In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04.

Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.

[Red Dawg]

He struggled as a head coach with the pissy poor attitude players he was left by Marty. He yelled and screamed too much but since then he has changed. At practice and all reports say that he still has plenty of fire but keeps it on lock when he should. He learned from his experience. He's a good DC and will do better next year. He can't do any worse with the players we have.

[Brock]

I dunno. Maybe there is a good reason he was never made a DC after his head coaching gig.

[KCTitus]

I tend to think that the team has never recovered from the death of DT. The defense has never been the same.

[Coogs]

Originally Posted by KCTitus

I tend to think that the team has never recovered from the death of DT. The defense has never been the same.

Wasn't DT on the field during the "Monday Night Meltdown" game?

[Coogs]

I have had some of the same thoughts as shaneo69. I do think that when it comes time to rebuild the Chiefs, that the house cleaning should include everyone that is involved in the organization right now. Front office all the way down to the person who selects the cheerleaders.

[KCTitus]

Originally Posted by Coogs

Wasn't DT on the field during the "Monday Night Meltdown" game?

Yep...that was his last season.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Coogs

Wasn't DT on the field during the "Monday Night Meltdown" game?

He was the main reason for the MNF meltdown. Having sharpe talk smack to him all night finally got to him and he grabbed the face mask and I'mgoing WTF are you doing! get some frigging control back Marty.

[el borracho]

Nothing personal against you, shaneo69, but I disagree with just about everything you just said.

Originally Posted by shaneo69

Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998.

You blame Gunther for the years he was not even here? That makes no sense.

Originally Posted by shaneo69

After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary.

You blame Gunther for Peterson's decisions? That makes no sense

Originally Posted by shaneo69

and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract.

Grbac was not an elite qb, but he was not the biggest problem we had. You are correct about the assistants being horrible.

Originally Posted by shaneo69

Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas.

Looks like speculation to me. Are you sure about all that? And again, Grbac was not the biggest problem we had. Also, I can't fault Gunther for the death of Derrick Thomas. That would be hard for any coach to overcome.

Originally Posted by shaneo69

Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles.

More speculation on your part and the fact that we were not as active in free agency as you/ me/ whoever might have liked is not the same as no help from free agency. Lional Dalton, arguably our best Dlineman, came in free agency this year.

Originally Posted by shaneo69

In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04.

Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.

And more speculation.

[htismaqe]

I guess I have to chime in and say I was against hiring Gunther from the get-go.

I strongly felt like hiring Gunther would mean no free agents -- primarily because Gunther's "I" attitude would likely mean he told Vermeil and Peterson that we didn't need any free agents with him on the job.

[the Talking Can]

I was against hiring Gun...but given our options he seemed like a reasonable choice....he was hired to change the "spirit" of defense, and since it seems, imho, that our defense has essentially given up half way through the year, and that they are arguably no better than last year, he has - so far- failed....miserably....

but, as has been mentioned, CP and DV bear the ultimate responsibility...they played on Gun's insane sense of loyalty and put him an impossible situation...the players on our defense are so lacking in talent, heart, desire, and pride that it is breathtaking...

damn, it is cloudy outside today....

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

I was against hiring Gun...but given our options he seemed like a reasonable choice....he was hired to change the "spirit" of defense, and since it seems, imho, that our defense has essentially given up half way through the year, and that they are arguably no better than last year, he has - so far- failed....miserably....

but, as has been mentioned, CP and DV bear the ultimate responsibility...they played on Gun's insane sense of loyalty and put him an impossible situation...the players on our defense are so lacking in talent, heart, desire, and pride that it is breathtaking...

damn, it is cloudy outside today....

You make it sound like Gunther was a victim.

As far as we know, he's a WILLING participant.

He saw the chance for immortal glory by turning around this monstrosity of a defense. He overestimated his ability -- AGAIN.

[the Talking Can]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

You make it sound like Gunther was a victim.

As far as we know, he's a WILLING participant.

He saw the chance for immortal glory by turning around this monstrosity of a defense. He overestimated his ability -- AGAIN.

I claimed he was both.....read it again

[the Talking Can]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

You make it sound like Gunther was a victim.

As far as we know, he's a WILLING participant.

He saw the chance for immortal glory by turning around this monstrosity of a defense. He overestimated his ability -- AGAIN.

let me clarify: CP and DV offered an alcoholic a drink

yes, Gun is responsible....but they new of his insane connection to KC and they new he wouldn't say no....and, IMHO, they knew they putting him in a sad situation....but Gunther's connection to KC glory days was enough to divert everyone: please the fans, create some excitment, feed the talking heads etc....letting our sad D slip under the radar until now, where we find ourselves faced with the truth

[Hammock Parties]

Vermeil claims that there will be no new starters on D this year. Is he in control or is Gunther? Gunther benched McCleon...